Life In 19x19

Magicwand wrote:this is what i would have played.
can you see that black is riding the rhythm?
what they played is not what i expected from dan level players.
i guess 5 low dans = kyu level

$$B Prisoners:
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$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , 1 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . 3 . . . X . . . . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Prisoners:
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$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , 1 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . 3 . . . X . . . . . |
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Interestingly, none of the gang even suggested that.

tj86430 wrote:Interestingly, none of the gang even suggested that.

Too much concerned with their own stones on the left.

Ironically, MW's sequence helps the stones on the left.

Cassandra wrote:

tj86430 wrote:Interestingly, none of the gang even suggested that.

Too much concerned with their own stones on the left.

You guys seem to assume that what MW suggested is actually good. Right?

I think it's pretty clear that his suggestion is better than what was played. That move was almost a pass.

Bantari wrote:

Cassandra wrote:

tj86430 wrote:Interestingly, none of the gang even suggested that.

Too much concerned with their own stones on the left.

You guys seem to assume that what MW suggested is actually good. Right?

I don't know if it's good or not, but I think something MW suggests is usually worth considering.

Separating White certainly would have been good. However, White's last move is more or less dame, while Black's move is good preparation for taking the right side. Separating first would be better, but this is not too bad either. White's group is not completely settled anyway.

tj86430 wrote:I don't know if it's good or not, but I think something MW suggests is usually worth considering.

Why?
Is that a blanket statement because he is a dan player, or are there some good reasons for that?

PS>
There are probably many moves in this position which can be worth considering. Nobody in the right might would expect a player to consider them all.
My gut feeling tells me that what MW suggested is nowhere near the top of the list. Although it still DOES make the list, I think (this is what I would probably play.)

I would be interested to know if a pro would consider this sequence. Anybody has some clout in this respect?

Anyways - I am not invested in this topic.
LONG LIVE MW!!

An attack that creates and splits two heavy groups while at a local advantage, in which all the stones you've been playing are relevant is classically good. It is for this reason (implicitly) we are lauding MW's sequence, not some other reason (as a generalisation at least). Weaker players of course defer to stronger players' judgement of local tactics.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d . X X X X . X z . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . X . . . . e . . X . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . b . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . f . . . |
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[daniel the smith] Oh, I like that move from white. I'm not sure where to go; ''a'', ''b'', and ''c'' all seem somewhat interesting. I'm certain ''z'' is terrible but I'm drawn to it, also.

[Dusk Eagle] Yeah, I'm kind of embarrassed that I brushed him playing that move off so quickly without seriously considering it. One thing I'm learning right now is the value of that right-angle shape - when I was weaker, I hated it, but now I'm noticing and using it more and more. But I digress.

Anyway, I think we should play ''d'' now. Magicwand has locked our corner group into the corner, so let's settle ourselves comfortably. Otherwise, he might take the corner, which makes his group very strong, ours quite weak and is quite a huge point swing. One of the reasons I didn't vote for the corner last move is because we still had access to the center. With that gone, I think now is the time.

[daniel the smith] Wouldn't that harm our weak group?

[Dusk] Diagram 32.D is what I see.

[JoazBanbeck] I think that the existence of 'z' is one of the reasons that we don't need to play 'd'. He cannot hurt our upper left group. We have eyes regardless of his most vigorous attack.

I like 'e' first ( if I read correctly, it threatens to cut ) followed by 'a' ( or something just a bit looser )

( BTW, I changed the diagram label slightly. Hope that's ok with everyone. )

[Dusk Eagle] Let's say we give white two moves in the corner (two moves, so that he can't take the corner in sente). Can we live with ''z''? (Diagram 32.Tenuki.1.) If not, do we really want to give white the corner in sente?

[Kirby] I don't think that the top left is urgent. I vote 0.8 for 'a', and 0.2 for 'e'.

[daniel the smith] I'm not sure about ''d'', I added 32.D.2. I do agree with DE that we can't ignore two moves against that corner. I like Joaz's idea but I want to think about it more.

[Dusk Eagle] Diagram 32.E.1 makes sense to me. I do have a question about it though - what will we do if he cuts us as in 32.E.2?

[JoazBanbeck]If he cuts like that, we play as in diagram 32.E.3.

BTW, I'm re-reading opening comments for this move. I don't see why you guys are impressed with MW's move. I think that the exchange of our last for his last was a good deal for us. His was a purely defensive move which will yield him approximately zero points in the long run. Its sole virtue was that it connected two weak groups, and it does not do even that particularly well, as we still have forcing moves - such as 'e' - which resurrect the threat to cut.
I'd love to keep making him play zero-point defensive moves.

If it comes to voting, I'm in favor of 'e', but I could get behind a slightly more modest form of 'a' - particularly a two-space pincer. Can those of you in favor of 'a' perhaps re-position it?

[Kirby] I think playing below 'a' (i.e. a looser pincer) is good, too. I just feel that a pincer will work well with the last move we played. I also like 'e'. Basically, white has two groups here, and I want to get both of them weak. If we can do that, we can get some points in compensation. I think tha tmessing around in the top left is a waste of this opportunity, as our group is not in danger. Sure, we might respond if he plays in the top left. But let's take advantage of an opportunity to make his stones weaker. So I'll go for 0.5 for 'f' and 0.5 for 'e'.

[JoazBanbeck] I made diagram 32.F.1, and, having looked at it a bit, I kinda like 'f'. Now, like Kirby, I'm 50/50 between 'e' and 'f'.

[daniel the smith] I think I like ''f'' best. ''e'' feels too thin to me, or something, even though I don't think any of the diagrams below are a convincing refutation of it. .7 ''f'', .3 ''e''.

[JoazBanbeck] That's a shaky majority for 'f' so far. DE, what say you?

[Dusk Eagle] Sorry, I'm in exam period, so I may disappear for a day sometimes. Having looked at what others said, I like ''f'' as well. I'll split my vote between ''e'', ''f'', and ''d''. 0.4 for ''d'', 0.3 for ''e'', 0.3 for ''f''.

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Diagram 32.D.1
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$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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[Dusk Eagle] Is this likely? Do you think it's good for us? I think so to both questions.

[daniel the smith] This seems OK for us, but see next diagram...

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[go]$$Bcm25 Diagram 32.D.2
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$$ | . 1 . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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[daniel the smith] Can white do this? 'Cause this doesn't look so good for us.

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 32.Tenuki.1
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$$ | . . . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X X X . X 4 5 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Now what? Or could we play a different B4?

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.1
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 3 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[JoazBanbeck] This is the follow up which makes B1 sente. Then we play 'a'. Soon afterwards, 'x' becomes a big move for us.

And as long as we are playing moves which threaten the imminent death of some white stones that would connect our upper left group, we need not fear even a dozen moves by MW in the upper left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.2
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 4 2 X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Suppose he does this. What should we do from here? Simply play ''a''?

[JoazBanbeck] ...and force a cutting stone to become stronger? See 32.E.3 below.
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.3
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . 2 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . 1 X O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[JoazBanbeck] Something like this looks good for us. Not only is it objectively a decent game, but it would force MW to play a sstyle that is exactly opposite what he likes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.4
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 . 2 X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[daniel the smith] Making this diagram so I can think about it... I guess this cut is fine for us.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.F.1
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . e . . X . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like the two space pincer a lot better. When he defends the pincered stone, we have an extension to B3.

I can't help but notice that there are lots of in depth diagrams about the left side, but only one very sparse diagram about the move actually chosen.

last few moves black played dont make any sense to me.
attacking one stone is too easy for me to tenuki.

when you are ahead or playing handycapped game all you need to do is take care of your weak stones.
that is why i think black's last move was a mistake.

if i was black...i would play as below.
if white is strong everywhere it would be running for your life.
but white is not strong. all he need to do is split my group and take care of his pillar stone.
that will reveal my weakness naturally.

if he plays as below i would not answer and tenuki because i dont like the result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Prisoners:
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 1 . 3 . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Go to sensei's and vote!