124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:08 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . 7 O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

value = 51.5%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 8 0 . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 7 . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, no way white will play

. But even without that tennuki I think white has some problems here. And that corner became solid black profit, which is nice. I think maybe the question will be if a move like

(or

at

) can threaten black's bottom group enough.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I THINK this lives? If it lives, at this point, I'm probably better off just living than betting harrassed while my opponent makes points solid.

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:16 pm

If I were black, I'd go for the kill. His wall looks pretty solid. White has not much room for escape. And I do not think he lives locally:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O 3 O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Am I missing something? Is it unreasonable for black to commit to the kill?

Anyway I prefer black by quite a lot in this position...

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:20 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 55.7% !! This is a HUGE leap up from the past, it's hovered in the 49-52% range the whole game. If Fuego could talk, I think it would say that white's last move was a mistake. It also spent a long time deciding how to play next (24:38):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . h O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O e . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . f . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . g . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X d . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 41%
b - 19%
c - 10%
d - 10%
e - 6%
f - 4%
g - 2%
h - 2%

Notice that Fuego didn't strongly consider many attacking plays on the bottom group, it may assume that white is alive for now. In particular it didn't seem to see Gaius's suggestion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 4 7 0 . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From this sequence and the considered moves, here are my thoughts:
0) I like

quite a bit, takes a big point and threatens to cut off the two stones. I think Chew needs to activate the aji in O3 soon, or the corner may be at risk.
1) It still overestimates the aji of its two stones on the top, thinking perhaps it can live on the top. (It may be possible, but I'm a bit skeptical)
2) It probably underestimates the weakness in white's bottom group.
3) It thinks it can win even if the white group lives. I've heard the advice that if you think it's close, take big yose. That may be black's plan here.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:23 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . 0 . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, I'm hoping to get sente from this for F10 or O4...

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:10 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 55.8%
Time: 28:15

Another long think, it seems that maybe Fuego thinks longer as we get into the middle game.

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 8 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 0 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . 7 2 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like the tennuki from the right side, I think maybe the exchange is kikashi for black. As for the sequence, Fuego always thinks Q15 is a little bit away. It's been thinking that since move 45. Otherwise the sequence seems mostly reasonable, this is the first time it's looked at the 33 invasion instead of the 34 attachment.

Moves considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O b . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a e . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 27%
b - 22%
c - 13%
d - 12%
e - 8%

I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead? One other point: Fuego did spend a tiny (1169) number of playouts on O4, the move Chew's been wanting. The sequence it saw was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 3 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:32 am

emeraldemon wrote:
.......I'm a bit surprised how close Fuego came to playing b. It's an interesting fighting move, but why complicate if you feel ahead?........

.......This seems like an all-or-nothing kind of fight, but maybe black has enough thickness to pull it off?.....

We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.

Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".

In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:12 am

Mike Novack wrote:
We are perhaps looking at one of the major differences between how this algorithm operates and how a human has to play the game.

Complications ....... make it harder for a human who has to keep track of more things, remembering what has been left unfinished and still has potential, etc. The algorithm is analyzing afresh each move. It isn't burdened by keeping in mind "plans". Doesn't work that way. I rather suspect that at least a bit of the overall strength of these programs is that they can afford complications that would burden a human player of approximately the same strength. Nor is it that the program is trying to complicate (as a human player might do if calculating the best chance remaining that the opponent goes astray). It's simply playing the best move it can find to maintain an advantage (or to possibly gain one) whether that's complicated or straightforward. It has no way of judging "this is more complicated than that".

In effect it's good at all out fighting but isn't "thinking" in those terms. If that thickness is enough, then the playouts will result in that fighting move valued as best.

Yes and no. Actually Fuego (and most monte-carlo bots I think) does play more conservatively when it's ahead and more aggressively when it's behind. It's an interesting (and positive) property of the evaluation system. If Fuego is behind (i.e. most "normal" moves lose in playouts), it will start playing complications or attacking moves, because maybe they win occasionally. This can actually be a bit annoying, because when the win % gets very low, it usually plays some ridiculous invasions, cuts that don't work, etc. for maybe 10-15 moves before deciding to resign. But sometimes you mess up in response, and it's back in the game.

On the flip side, It doesn't care about score at all, so if it enters yose up by 10 points, it will play a protective move inside its own space rather than take a 2 point endgame play, because the protection wins more in playouts. Actually much of the time Fuego wins, it wins by 0.5 or 1.5 , because it would rather be sure of a small win than push for a bigger one.

Overall it's a smart strategy, and it's pretty cool that it's an emergent property of the search, and not something that had to be hand coded. However, it can backfire: I played Fuego once in a game where it was ahead, it gave away several endgame moves so it could protect cuts that didn't work, and eventually it had to win a 1-pt ko to win the game. But it had miscalculated somewhere and I won the ko. (This wasn't a slow game like this, it was a blitz 9x9 if I remember correctly.)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:36 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X 2 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ouch, that is a giant mass of territory. I wonder if I ought to resign here. I can't even do F10 like I wanted, because it can just be cut successfully. At least, it looks like that to my reading now. I'm going to mess around over here, then look into more aggressive stuff to deal with that left side entrance. I kept reading and nothing QUITE worked. However, if I get K5 (which I want anyways), the stuff on the right may just work, as I have a bit more space to run to. As a result, I may even get K5 in sente. That may be a bit optimistic, but a game review I got earlier told me 'Don't just go for the jugular, but try to get your sente moves THREATENING to kill first, and then see if you can kill or not'. So I'm going to try that, to see if I can get any kind of reduction value out of this side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . 9 8 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X 2 6 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X 7 O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 This doesn't work $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . X O O X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 I didn't draw it out to the end, but this doesn't seem to either $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X . . 7 6 4 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . 0 X 2 9 X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:54 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 55.4%
Time: 22:49

Fuego believes it is winning, but certainly not by resignation amount. (Fuego's default resign threshold is 8%).

Moves considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . b O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c e d . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 54%
b - 23%
c - 10%
d - 7%
e - 3%

The push at b is probably sente, but I'm pretty sure black can play it at any time, so there's not much reason to play it now. c,d,e are all looking for a looser answer to the local position. I agree that hane is best though.

Main Line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm63 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . 5 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 3 . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Holding my tongue about

)
After the hane, Fuego is 78% confident of

and

which starts a potentially nasty battle. I think black's influence is enough to stay ahead, but it's a bit hard to read. Just for fun, here's the rest of Fuego's prediction about the fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 8 . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 X O . . . X O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X 3 . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O 2 5 X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O 1 4 X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X O 7 . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(I usually don't show the later move's of Fuego's prediction because they often don't make sense, but this time it seems semi-reasonable)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:02 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O . 4 . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, so this threatens either the move I've been eyeing all game (O4) or to move out into the middle fairly quickly. I'm guessing that black will let me connect underneath at P2 now, but it's something.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 5 O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

value: 55.9%
time: 15:08

Fuego didn't need much time to choose this, spending 97% of playouts on this move.

expected sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm65 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . . 7 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O 1 O 4 0 X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O 6 2 X 8 x X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . 5 X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(

at x)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O 6 8 X . . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's fair, but it doesn't remove that much of the purpose of the original hane, so I'll continue in the same vein.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:37 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 57.5%
Time: 23:10

Fuego accepted the trigger, I hope you don't mind if I don't post the sequence since this supersedes it. Notice that the value took another significant jump up (was 55.9%). Fuego is liking this game more and more

Moves Considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . e . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X d b . c O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X a . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a: 51%
b: 22%
c: 16%
c: 8%
e: 1%

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm69 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 8 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X 1 . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . 7 X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now that the bottom group is settled, I think black looks pretty good. The middle will come under attack, but I'm not sure Chew has enough. The only thing that makes me doubt is Fuego's certainty that white has to block on the top.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:45 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X 0 . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Right. Because of the atari exchange, I didn't actually really get anything for burning the aji here. Darn. Well, I suppose there's always the brute force method for reduction. Someone tell me, should I resign? I never can tell when games are viable and when it's just over.

Life In 19x19

124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)