I did not renew my AGA membership.

[bearzbear]

The over arching concept seems lost.

Go analogy: people keep talking about which move in a particular variation of a joseki is good or not. What I'm trying to look at is whole board strategy and direction of play!

_-_-bear

Those both sound important.

That's a great contribution to the discussion.
Thank you for your insight.

_-_-

[hyperpape]

Ok, I'll be more straightforward: it matters both whether your big picture (which I think is non-existant) is correct, and whether the particular facts you mention are true. Ignoring either gets you nowhere. So I think Phil was entirely right to question your facts.

[Kirby]

...

I guess I take issue with this whole attitude of "what do we get" Yes, the AGA should of course do whatever it can to give members benefits and to promote go, but joining an organization should be more than "what do we get"

I mean, seriously, its $30 a year. That is less than a week's worth of coffee for most of us. Now, I ask you a question, which do you identify as - a go player or a coffee drinker?

Because it seems to me if you are a go player, you belong to your national association.

...

I guess we do disagree on some things. Why do you take an issue if I have a "what do we get" attitude? I'll agree that 30 bucks is not a lot - and I've paid it before.

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

If the AGA "becomes interesting", then sure, I will pay money for it. But what evidence do I have that it will go in that direction?

The e-journal, in its free form, is interesting for sure. But I can look up go information online for free, too. I know some foreign languages, so I can find go news pretty easily every day if I want.

So I guess I would sum up to say that, if the AGA amounted to something that I really cared about its existance, then I'd pay for it.

I know such a stance likely irritates you and others here, but I'm just giving an honest opinion of what I see. You can argue that it will take investment for the AGA to actually become something I find worth paying for. But how many years is that going to take?

It's like a software company charging thousands of dollars for software that doesn't give benefit to people they don't already have. The company can complain that nobody buys their software, but what sense does that make?

[daniel_the_smith]

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

If the AGA "becomes interesting", then sure, I will pay money for it. But what evidence do I have that it will go in that direction?

I think this position is both reasonable and probably wide-spread. (EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't agree with it, but I do think it is reasonable.)

It is our task to make the AGA an organization worth joining.

So, Kirby: Can you name one or two things the AGA could do that would significantly raise the chance of you re-joining?

[Kirby]

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

If the AGA "becomes interesting", then sure, I will pay money for it. But what evidence do I have that it will go in that direction?

I think this position is both reasonable and probably wide-spread. (EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't agree with it, but I do think it is reasonable.)

It is our task to make the AGA an organization worth joining.

So, Kirby: Can you name one or two things the AGA could do that would significantly raise the chance of you re-joining?

You only need to do one thing: do another go world promotion. To be clear, once I again live in a city where tournaments are happening more often, I will be a member for the tournaments, even if you don't do the go world promotion.

And if I were single, I may even join just to go to congress. But in my current situation, the go world promotion would make me join (or something similar).

[msgreg]

I guess we do disagree on some things. Why do you take an issue if I have a "what do we get" attitude? I'll agree that 30 bucks is not a lot - and I've paid it before.

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

Please see this article.

“The resources at usgo.org have been invaluable, and (the AGA’s) personal assistance made it much easier to get the specific help I needed…I’m confident CMGO will be a hub for teaching and playing go in Central Mississippi for quite a while.”

If you ever play someone from central Mississippi online or otherwise, it's possible that the AGA had something to do with it. People that volunteer for the AGA, willingly and freely gave their time, expertise, and energy helping me to help others learn and play go in central Mississippi.

In part, that's what the AGA does for you.

[Kirby]

I guess we do disagree on some things. Why do you take an issue if I have a "what do we get" attitude? I'll agree that 30 bucks is not a lot - and I've paid it before.

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

Please see this article.

“The resources at usgo.org have been invaluable, and (the AGA’s) personal assistance made it much easier to get the specific help I needed…I’m confident CMGO will be a hub for teaching and playing go in Central Mississippi for quite a while.”

If you ever play someone from central Mississippi online or otherwise, it's possible that the AGA had something to do with it. People that volunteer for the AGA, willingly and freely gave their time, expertise, and energy helping me to help others learn and play go in central Mississippi.

In part, that's what the AGA does for you.

Sure, some people may have learned go due to the aga's existence. But a great deal of people learn go online for free, too. People learn go all the time at student initiated university go clubs for free, too. We don't need a monetary organization to get people to learn go. If I want people in my city to learn go, I can put up fliers.

I mostly play go online, anyway, and my paying 30 dollars a year has no affect on the fact that I can play a game of go 24/7, whenever it's convenient for me. If the AGA didn't exist after today, this would not change at all.

[Kirby]

To be clear, many things that the aga does are positive. My view is simply that the aga's existence does not affect me much in my current situation, so I do not feel morally or otherwise obligated to pay money every year to something that has little effect on me.

[bearzbear]

Ok, I'll be more straightforward: it matters both whether your big picture (which I think is non-existant) is correct, and whether the particular facts you mention are true. Ignoring either gets you nowhere. So I think Phil was entirely right to question your facts.

Except that the facts were NOT mine at all!
They were Daniels, correct?
The other facts were from the AGA minutes, yes?
What am i missing here?

If you see a different "big picture" as you call it, then tell me please what your relationship is to the AGA? Perhaps that has something to do with what you are saying?

Tell us about how well the AGA has been doing over the last few years, the last decade and the 4 decades before? Correct me and give me the proper picture. I do not mind being wrong at all.

Explain what I am ignoring? Yeah I am ignoring an argument on individual and specific ideas to fix one area that may need correction.

_-_-bearzbear



I am also ignoring the several times I have been called names, apparently because people did not like hearing things straight and directly... while the same people called me rude. Hmmmm...

[xed_over]

I...I...I...me...me...me...I...I...me

I think what HKA and others are saying is something like JFK tried to say so many years ago...

ask not "what can the AGA do for me?", but ask "what can I do for the AGA?"

so when the AGA helps a new go club get started and expanded, its not the AGA that helped them, its you and I (well, apparently not you).

I like helping other people learn to play, whether I do it myself in person, or vicariously through an organization. "I" helped Mississippi get equipment, and I helped teach new players there -- and I never even met them.

My $30 was well spent.

Who else can I help?

[illluck]

Disclaimer: not a member of the AGA (or even in the States).

This is purely for that "Ask not what ___ can do for you, but what you can do for ___". I may be overly cynical in thinking that it's pure rhetorics, but if the AGA cannot operate and use its resources efficiently to provide value for paying members, what chances does it have in effectively spreading the game (you have to take care of yourself to take care of others)?

I have no clue if the AGA is doing well (that Prime Minister's Cup thing was pretty terrible, but I was very impressed by the response by the board members and other volunteers in this thread), but couldn't resist as I always hated that sentence (maybe it's too "bright" and optimistic for someone like me) :p

[Kirby]

I...I...I...me...me...me...I...I...me

I think what HKA and others are saying is something like JFK tried to say so many years ago...

ask not "what can the AGA do for me?", but ask "what can I do for the AGA?"

so when the AGA helps a new go club get started and expanded, its not the AGA that helped them, its you and I (well, apparently not you).

I like helping other people learn to play, whether I do it myself in person, or vicariously through an organization. "I" helped Mississippi get equipment, and I helped teach new players there -- and I never even met them.

My $30 was well spent.

Who else can I help?

Let's make an analogy. Suppose I make an iPhone app about go. Now suppose that you have a device that runs android. You don't have an iPhone.

Now, it's very cool that I have helped the go community by making an iPhone app. And I want you to buy my app.

The thing is, while you like go, you don't have an iphone, so the app is useless to you.

I can make outlandish claims about your duty as a go player to support the community by buying my app, but that would be stupid.

When the aga does nothing for me at this time in my life, why am I expected to give money to the aga?

I won't think you're selfish for not buying my iphone app. I hope the same can be said to me for not buying a mmbership hat does nothing for me.

---

You say my perspective is "all about me". I think this is bogus, because the 30 dollars I would spend for membership could be used - altruistically - to buy go books for my neighbor down the street.

That kind of gesture - with a real person that knows me - means more to the go community than my membership fee will.

[tapir]

I found it kind of ironic that after talking about cutting expenses, corporate turnaround and all that one of the proposals of bearzbearz was to create full time staff positions. Another point I found odd was quoting what Mr. Smith said at AGA meetings as evidence how bad things are. For DTS being at those meetings and saying those things is already part of the change.

And finally a question from an European perspective:

Did you ever consider to change the collection membership fees from individual payment to payment by / through the chapters? Or are most members outside of chapters anyway?

[shapenaji]

I'm a member of the AGA, and I wouldn't let it lapse. I like playing in tournaments whenever I can.

But I don't understand why folks would take issue with Kirby's position. It's not selfishness to decide not to join an organization because you get very little from the services. A membership is not a charitable donation.

Now, I will concede, some of those services are hidden. Go players in this country get benefits from the AGA without realizing it. But why hold those over anyone's head?

We shouldn't need to guilt people into joining the AGA, it has enough going for it otherwise.

And about the worst way you can convince a person to join your organization is by berating them for not joining... Well, short of accepting memberships at gunpoint.

[p2501]

so when the AGA helps a new go club get started and expanded, its not the AGA that helped them, its you and I (well, apparently not you).

I like helping other people learn to play, whether I do it myself in person, or vicariously through an organization. "I" helped Mississippi get equipment, and I helped teach new players there -- and I never even met them.

My $30 was well spent.

Who else can I help?

Thats exactly how I see it. I became a member of my national go organisation without knowing and regardless of all the benefits. And the annual fee is 78€ which is ~100$. I wanted to contribute to go. Later I got to know how hard it is as a go organisation, to be effective and to raise money and recruit volounteers. I have done volounteer work since then on multiple occasions (helping run tournaments, broadcasting important matches online for EuroGoTV, ...).