I'd challenge that. Even this game I think is still wide open and god knows how many mistakes I did already compared to a high-dan^^. When you play light, you are less predictable and more flexible. Of course at some point you gotta commit....Joaz Banbeck wrote:You can't play lightly everyplace.
Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
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Pippen
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
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shapenaji
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
What we took advantage of, though, was not tactical mistakes, but rather that you allowed us to keep building thickness and territory.Pippen wrote:I'd challenge that. Even this game I think is still wide open and god knows how many mistakes I did already compared to a high-dan^^. When you play light, you are less predictable and more flexible. Of course at some point you gotta commit....Joaz Banbeck wrote:You can't play lightly everyplace.
You play light so that you can check a region, while still having sente to play somewhere important. If you never play anywhere important with your sente, your opponent will simply get too much profit.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Bill Spight
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
We have thick and thin, heavy and light. Thick and light are good, heavy and thin are bad. Nearly everybody gets the metaphors, few players understand the concepts. Most dan players can fairly reliably tell the difference between heavy and thick, between thin and light, but we all get it wrong at times. If it were easy to explain these terms verbally, virtually every SDK could get it right.
Most amateur play, IMO, is heavy. And often it is heavy without trying to be thick, which is a real shame. I think that in part it is a question of attitude. To consistently play lightly requires a flexible attitude. It is possible to make thick plays and to treat those thick stones lightly.
Most amateur play, IMO, is heavy. And often it is heavy without trying to be thick, which is a real shame. I think that in part it is a question of attitude. To consistently play lightly requires a flexible attitude. It is possible to make thick plays and to treat those thick stones lightly.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Loons
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Bill I think you're being a trifle nihilistic.
Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
Further, skillful attack involves making your opponent heavy; it's a two player affair. When Shapenaji struck white's cap it was revealed to be heavy, though it looked like a common light technique.
Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
Further, skillful attack involves making your opponent heavy; it's a two player affair. When Shapenaji struck white's cap it was revealed to be heavy, though it looked like a common light technique.
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gowan
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
I've noticed on KGS that players make heavy groups and call them thick. All of this stuff is high level for sure. One relatively test for thick vs. heavy is that thick stones are strong whereas heavy stones are usually vulnerable and difficult to sacrifice. Of course a group that is thick at one time in the game could become heavy later. Another dichotomy that has some relevance here is fast vs. slow. Kobayashi Koichi used to be criticised occasionally for making slow moves which he said he considered thick. Fast development is often thin. Takemiya Masaki is well-known for his moyo-oriented play. Less well-known is that he loves thickness and considers the success of his moyos as based on thickness.Bill Spight wrote:We have thick and thin, heavy and light. Thick and light are good, heavy and thin are bad. Nearly everybody gets the metaphors, few players understand the concepts. Most dan players can fairly reliably tell the difference between heavy and thick, between thin and light, but we all get it wrong at times. If it were easy to explain these terms verbally, virtually every SDK could get it right.
Most amateur play, IMO, is heavy. And often it is heavy without trying to be thick, which is a real shame. I think that in part it is a question of attitude. To consistently play lightly requires a flexible attitude. It is possible to make thick plays and to treat those thick stones lightly.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Oxymorons are the best kind of morons.Loons wrote:
Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
Technique is important, but there is lack of understanding, as well.I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
When I was a 2 dan a visiting Japanese dan commented that I had a thick style of play. Once he pointed that out, I realized that it was so, but I had had no particular thought of playing thickly. It is something that just gradually developed.
You are referring to the butsukari at Q-06? I don't think that the White stone became heavy at that point. In my view it became part of a thin group with the subsequent hane, and then heavy with the connection forming a three stone group.Further, skillful attack involves making your opponent heavy; it's a two player affair. When Shapenaji struck white's cap it was revealed to be heavy, though it looked like a common light technique.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Loons
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
I was just wrong, illustrating your point.Bill Spight wrote:You are referring to the butsukari at Q-06? I don't think that the White stone became heavy at that point. In my view it became part of a thin group with the subsequent hane, and then heavy with the connection forming a three stone group.
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EdLee
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It is not.Loons wrote:Saying amateurs get the metaphors but don't get the concept is an oxymoron.
It shows (at least) two different levels of understanding:
- If we say something is "heavy, like a burden; you want to get rid of it"
many people would "understand" it from real-life, non-Go, education and experience. - But to show an understanding of sabaki in Go, one must be able to demonstrate it on the board, with actual moves.
And, to repeat ad nauseum, people at x-kyu have an x-kyu understanding,
and people at y-dan have a y-dan understanding.
(So in fact it's an infinite continuum of levels.)
As Bill already mentioned, it's not just technique or reading: it's everything.Loons wrote:I think amateurs are trying to play thick and light but lack the technique, ie reading to do so at a high level.
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drmwc
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.
How about this as an alternative?
If black insists on capturing the lone stone, White gives up a lot of points, but gets thickness and quite a nice moyo. I suspect it's playable for white. It certainly feels m ore in keeping with the spirit of this fuseki.
How about this as an alternative?
If black insists on capturing the lone stone, White gives up a lot of points, but gets thickness and quite a nice moyo. I suspect it's playable for white. It certainly feels m ore in keeping with the spirit of this fuseki.
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Polama
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Personally, I don't really like that strategy. Black is rich in points and has sente to start ensuring white doesn't profit too much from his thickness.drmwc wrote:I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.
How about this as an alternative?
If we drop white's sacrifice stone:
That doesn't feel like a crazy way for black to play: a bit territorial, but it's 4th and 5th line territory and ends in sente. So if black would be willing to entertain playing like this anyways, that seems to suggest the sacrifice stones value is almost completely wasted.
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skydyr
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
I'm not sure black should playdrmwc wrote:I think 18 was a mistake, and the start of things becoming heavy. White played the stone on the side with a plan of abandoning it if necessary - 18 tries to hold onto it but leave many cuts behind.
How about this as an alternative?
If black insists on capturing the lone stone, White gives up a lot of points, but gets thickness and quite a nice moyo. I suspect it's playable for white. It certainly feels m ore in keeping with the spirit of this fuseki.
to 
right away.If black just comes out, it's not clear to me what white's group is accomplishing, and it looks kind of thin. I suppose as white, I'd probably consider staking the game on making a huge left/top side moyo and being able to make sabaki on the right.
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drmwc
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Polama:
I guess our positional judgement diverges. In the tewari variant without the sacrifice stone, I would be very happy with white.
Go is a topological game. Linking disparate groups across the board is very powerful, particularly early in the game.
sydyr:
I agree the line I showed may be sub-optimal. However, 21 is not necessarily a clear-cut improvement. After saving the singe stone white has a lot to aim at:
For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
White can still go for the mega-moyo:
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
White also has an emergency cut if he needs to get eyes:
White won't do this in a hurry since 24-25 is such aji keshi.
So overall, after white connects at 23, all the white bits are strong. There is a lot of aji for white to aim at. I don't think white is badly off.
Here's a final idea demonstrating aji for white:
White has a ropey cut! Cutting is fun, so this this must be nearly optimal. It's just a shame it doesn't work... (Black can capture the cutting stones is white is too insistent). However, the centre blocking move is now stronger for white.
I guess our positional judgement diverges. In the tewari variant without the sacrifice stone, I would be very happy with white.
Go is a topological game. Linking disparate groups across the board is very powerful, particularly early in the game.
sydyr:
I agree the line I showed may be sub-optimal. However, 21 is not necessarily a clear-cut improvement. After saving the singe stone white has a lot to aim at:
For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
White can still go for the mega-moyo:
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
White also has an emergency cut if he needs to get eyes:
White won't do this in a hurry since 24-25 is such aji keshi.
So overall, after white connects at 23, all the white bits are strong. There is a lot of aji for white to aim at. I don't think white is badly off.
Here's a final idea demonstrating aji for white:
White has a ropey cut! Cutting is fun, so this this must be nearly optimal. It's just a shame it doesn't work... (Black can capture the cutting stones is white is too insistent). However, the centre blocking move is now stronger for white.
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shapenaji
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
Looks a long way from working at the moment, I can't see how white can make a move that prevent's "a" from working without giving black the opportunity to fix. The stability of that group is entirely local.drmwc wrote: For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
EDIT: 25 seems awfully submissive... why not 25 at 26? I don't see a strong w response?
White can still go for the mega-moyo:
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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skydyr
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
It may be worth noting that black passed forshapenaji wrote:Looks a long way from working at the moment, I can't see how white can make a move that prevent's "a" from working without giving black the opportunity to fix. The stability of that group is entirely local.drmwc wrote: For example, white is developing aji against the corner. This invasion looks pretty plausible. It doesn't quite work yet, but is not too far from becoming a threat.
EDIT: 25 seems awfully submissive... why not 25 at 26? I don't see a strong w response?
White can still go for the mega-moyo:
This is a bit wasteful, but white gets sente and truly wonderful thickness.
in each of these diagrams as well.-
drmwc
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Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here
You mean this?
Again, this looks OK for white. (Admittedly passing with 23 is unlikely to be the best move!)
SO I think an overall likely continuation, without the pass is something along these lines:
I have no idea who's winning. This looks way better for white than the actual game.
Again, this looks OK for white. (Admittedly passing with 23 is unlikely to be the best move!)
SO I think an overall likely continuation, without the pass is something along these lines:
I have no idea who's winning. This looks way better for white than the actual game.