Life In 19x19

Searching my database on the position below (to include various alternatives on the left side of the board), results in the following list of professional games:
Kitani Minoru - Go Seigen, 1936-04-08
Sugiuchi Masao - Cho Chikun, 1986-03-26
Takano Hideki - Hiraoka Satoshi, 1991-08-04
Seo Pong-su - Han Ch'eol-kyun, 1992-10-26
Kobayashi Satoru - Cho Chikun, 1996-01-31
Cho Hun-hyeon - Yi Ch'ang-ho, 1997-09-24
Dang Xiyun - Qin Shi, 2007-10-16

The underlined player made the atttachment (i.e. in the first game White made a san-ren-sei and attached on Black's approach stone). YMMV

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Search Pattern
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$. . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +[/go]

peti29 wrote:I remember Nick Sibicky mentioning in his videos that is a losing move, so I approached immediately.

I have read that in a couple of places too, but not that immediate kakari on the "good" side was the right thing - it was described as bad because of the natural direction it gives Black a few moves later in the opening, and it almost punishes itself.

Do I have that right? Or is the order unimportant, and is approaching straight away good too?

joellercoaster wrote:

peti29 wrote:that is a losing move, so I approached immediately.

I have read that in a couple of places too, ...
Do I have that right?

At DDK levels, sometimes even at 1-1 is not a losing move.

The other moves, the ones that really decide the game
at these levels, are much more urgent to study, IMO.

When we are these levels, we routinely play very slow, very small moves —
moves that are literally about the same as 1-1. Passes. -1 point in gote, etc.

I think it's a little crazy to worry about at these levels.
But if you enjoy studying it, more power to you.

Sorry but this is wrong. Attach is a special purpose joseki and is played by weak players many many times when it is bad. Guo Juan 5p's advice is to banish this move from your repertoire until you are 5 dan as only then can you identify the rare occurrences it is good. Perhaps its popularity comes from its recommendation as a handicap joseki in that it's good enough if you start with loads of stones and is fairly simple.

I'm sorry but i don't follow. I checked the lecture in-seong once made about san-ren-sei and there he sad the attach is "ok" and "possible". Maybe not as recommened and often played as other moves, but still not "bad". You may not want to give a detailed explanation with a lot of diagrams about this, then can you instead link to a audio-lecture of guo juan, where she talks about this in more detail?

Also the new joseki-dictionary by Takao Shinji still includes the attach as an answer to the approach keima and says it is usually played if black can expect to build a large moyo on the side - which is in fact the reason i would play this move with san-ren-sei and not (for example) with ni-ren-sei. The local position on the side is identical to a position in a handicap-game and i don't believe that white gains so much more from this exchange than black.

What the inseong says is right. It's inseong who know when to play this move.
What Guo Juan says is also right. Below inseong many players fall into the habit of playing this move, while most of the time another move is better. She forcefully opens up the game for these players.
Even so, her advice or the inseong is relevant to very strong players because they assume such choices to be significant to the result and the overall level of play. For (my judgment) players below 5d it is not true that an advantageous opening - through smart choices - is correlated to the end result. They make the difference in the middle or end game, save the occasional deciding blunder in the opening.

I have a lot of respect for Guo Juan and have followed lectures with her in the past. I think she and her fellow pro level teachers, teach on a level though that is fundamentally too high for their average student. Their selection of topics is intrinsically targetting (high) dan players. This is also the level their kyu students aspire. Perhaps they find each other at a commercial equilibrium.

Knotwilg wrote:It's inseong who know when to play this move.

You might as well say that this (like any) move was played if it is at least as good as all other moves. Do they have more specific advice?

Hi all,
still 6k. (I didn't want to be disrespectful with my previous question but I think some disbelief every now and then can only help me improve. Btw thx for suggesting 5-5, Uberdude!)

In the following game (as usual) I'm building a huge moyo (perhaps it's not even a moyo, but considerable influence), which gets dispelled by placing a single stone (as usual). I'm really fed up with that. Maybe I'll switch to more territory oriented play, but for now, I'd like to find out if I can do something to protect my hard earned moyo.

The game is here:


In the end I won because I accidentally spotted a life and death problem (maybe doing some tsumego on my phone every now and then is useful after all). But otherwise I would have lost by a few points I think.
- when I played I felt somewhat uneasy about P-3. Luckily forced me to fix my shape (or at least make it somewhat better)
- I think was bad. It later directly led to my win but I think its bad anyways.
- mwhahaha
- I thought for a long time before . I felt an urge to approach the top left but I didn't want to provoke a ladder-breaker and I also considered a direct take too slow. At least also caps Q-10 so it has more purpose than just taking. Was it a good move, or what could have been a better choice?
- was unpleasant because I didn't want to use my wall to create minor territory. So I only played those few stones around L-4 to keep up my wall's influence.
- and is the infernal stone I was talking about. How to handle this move? I thought I ought to be able to kill it. But what if I fail? The risk was too high so I chose to protect territory instead. I still managed to put some pressure on the invading stones - but not enough. Is there a sure (read: fool-proof) way to kill ? (My choice for the beginning would probably be E-10 or F-11.) I'm really really weak at killing running groups, sigh...
- I wanted to somehow utilize the aji in the corner to somehow protect around F-14 in the process - but it didn't work. (At least I gathered some points.)
- :w108: I didn't think about killing that group yet. I just thought that it's too big a point not to take.
- :b109: was yet another frustrating move. At least I didn't feel like I should be able to kill it.
- :w130: I know surrounding should come first. I didn't aim for a kill, but I didn't want that group live easily and without stress. At least I strengthened my borders a bit.
- :b155: I so wanted to play E-1 myself but I couldn't find the time for it.

peti29 wrote:

My thoughts.

24: You can think about playing this move on the side. Now blacks stone is cutting two strong groups that don't need to connect at all. Therefore black will have a useless weak group in the center.

30: I think this would be better as a pincer? Do you know any 3-4 pincer joseki?

28: Actually considering how easy it was for black to come in maybe you should have extended from the wall you created so there was less space to dispel your wall's strength.

70-74: looks like white is desperate to connect. But look at the groups individually I think they would be fine on their own unconnected. But because white connected his two groups it gave black time to strengthen and jump out.

70: Imagine 70 at G8 where will black's group run? And look at the new moyo you are creating in the center with the outside influence of your other stones.

88: Why did you take so long to play here? This is a weak group for you to attack. Imagine if you got this move in before black played F12

Nice catch at the end! It feels good when tsumego starts paying off.

I would suggest that when your groups are split or cut in two, consider how strong each group is before you connect them.
If one group is already very strong see if there is a good move to make your other group strong.
If both groups are already very strong see if there is a good move to attack your opponent.

If you want to defend your moyo then, instead of defending your cash when your opponent tries to reduce, defend your moyo.

peti29 wrote: - and is the infernal stone I was talking about. How to handle this move? I thought I ought to be able to kill it. But what if I fail? The risk was too high so I chose to protect territory instead. I still managed to put some pressure on the invading stones - but not enough. Is there a sure (read: fool-proof) way to kill ? (My choice for the beginning would probably be E-10 or F-11.) I'm really really weak at killing running groups, sigh...

What happens if you pass after 67? How does black live? Notice that black played the a14 endgame too early (made you stronger) which means he threatens little by breaking into the side. He certainly can't live there so needs to run away. So instead of passing (which I think it's still not so easy for black to live after) play from the outside like f11. In fact answer once at d9 could be ok as ignoring shoulder hit is a little painful if you are unsure of killing, but the moves after that keeping the territory were very slack, surround at g10. Or how about answering 67 at f15 and declaring black's lone stone dead in a sea of white stones even if he gets to play 2 moves in a row (f15 is not a total pass as it cuts off black's easiest escape route and attacks from a very big distance). It's certainly funny and quite possibly true. I expect Cho Chikun could live inside, but I would easily kill a 6k, and against someone of my own strength I would not be sure of living or killing for either side. Basically you have too much respect for the soundness of your opponent's moves: leap at the opportunity to laugh in your opponent's face and crush his overplays to dust.

- Play L3. It's such a big difference between black and white getting this point. This move should appear automatically in your head as the key point after black strikes diagonally on the third line versus your fourth line stone.

Crash and burn!

Ok, this game was a disaster regarding the outcome. Somehow I still feel it a success. I haven't felt that sweat and blood scent of fighting since DDK. (I was quite sleepy at the time of playing this. Probably that was the cause of two serious but stupid mistakes.)



- I'm not fond of . I remembered seeing it in similar situations so I thought of trying it out. was probably a mistake as I ended up cut.
- the intention was to rob white of his influence.
- maybe was one too far?
- was so severe. I've been wanting to play J-14 for several moves but I didn't have the time.
- I'm proud of this little plan which I (unbelievable isn't it) read out beforehand.
- I think is simply stupid. Should have been R-7 or L-3 maybe.
- aww, I wanted to play there. But somehow I managed to counter! Yay!
- I failed to notice :w160:-s significance. I blame my sleepiness.
- I managed to create a KO, yess!
- :b195: Ok, serious question time. I wanted to somehow utilize F-9 as a large KO threat. Was this a good idea or was I simply lucky. I gave my opponent yet another chance to play a KO threat, but! He would only get to profit on one - and I'll be the one choosing which one. Is this a valid tactic, or am I only being ignorant?
- :b203: is a stupid stupid misclick. I wanted to play L-18 but I never ask for undo. Were it not for this mistake I would have been able to save this group by the F-9 threat!

peti29 wrote:Crash and burn!

Ok, this game was a disaster regarding the outcome. Somehow I still feel it a success. I haven't felt that sweat and blood scent of fighting since DDK. (I was quite sleepy at the time of playing this. Probably that was the cause of two serious but stupid mistakes.)

- I'm not fond of . I remembered seeing it in similar situations so I thought of trying it out. was probably a mistake as I ended up cut.
- the intention was to rob white of his influence.
- maybe was one too far?
- was so severe. I've been wanting to play J-14 for several moves but I didn't have the time.
- I'm proud of this little plan which I (unbelievable isn't it) read out beforehand.
- I think is simply stupid. Should have been R-7 or L-3 maybe.
- aww, I wanted to play there. But somehow I managed to counter! Yay!
- I failed to notice :w160:-s significance. I blame my sleepiness.
- I managed to create a KO, yess!
- :b195: Ok, serious question time. I wanted to somehow utilize F-9 as a large KO threat. Was this a good idea or was I simply lucky. I gave my opponent yet another chance to play a KO threat, but! He would only get to profit on one - and I'll be the one choosing which one. Is this a valid tactic, or am I only being ignorant?
- :b203: is a stupid stupid misclick. I wanted to play L-18 but I never ask for undo. Were it not for this mistake I would have been able to save this group by the F-9 threat!

I don't know much about the one space jump down in the upper left, but at it seems bigger to take care of the lone white stone. Both sides would have solid positions, but black's would be higher, and black is more suited to playing an influence game that white, thanks to the 3-3 in the lower right.

and on makes me cry, and white's getting good moves free while black pushes from behind, and unless you can kill the white stones on top cleanly, I don't think the influence is worth it. Certainly not when black gives white the hane.

seems a bit slack to me. Black's already out, and this move doesn't threaten anything. I'd rather directly limit white's bottom, or seal white in on the top, or any number of other things. Maybe just jumping along with another one space jump; white's not going anywhere important. White is low everywhere and has less territory than black, so this should be an easy game for black.

I don't understand to :b63. After , black can just stand up and peep both cuts to give white a weakish group. Giving up the stone seems like it gives white a lot of undeserved center strength.

13: c14 and fight. Note white did bad shape cut of knight's move. White's corner is not alive so if you can keep your cutting stones alive for a bit white will need to come back to passively live in the corner. I didn't actually read the fight is ok, but I'd rather fight and die than make it too easy for white.
17: common greedy mistake: you must play on the top side (e.g. k16). After your atari from the cut you gave white a lot on the left so you need to make sure you get a lot on the top. If white can save g17 in a way that attacks your wall, rather than being a weak or dead group for white then he gets to play on both sides and make points whilst you play dame.

Don't be timid. Attack aggressively with a tight pincer at L16. That's what you built up the thickness for, right? It doesn't help the corner, but white will probably be running for a while, and you'll probably get sente to deal with the corner if you feel so inclined. N17 is a sort of halfway move that neither attacks strongly nor helps the corner very much.

Something like the sequence L16, J14, J12, L14, N15 is what I'd be aiming for. Probably there'd be some forcing moves that either side would/should make along the way, but that's the basic flow of the stones. You're getting almost-territory along the top and building up some potential along the side just as a natural consequence of the attack, which is how go should... go