#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:32 am

To add a dissenting voice to the debate:
With black, I would seriously consider playing the slow diagonal connection. I like solid, aji-free positions - they let me overplay elsewhere! The sequence below appears to me to be viable for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 1 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . Y . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

With a solid move like black 1 above, black can hack around fearlessly in white's moyo.

Once he's lived, if he he has sente, if he still really want a moyo he can play at the triangled stone. Although I'd probably want to use sente to play the circled stone and (more or less) take the corner.

The reason I'm not definite this is the right approach is the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O 2 6 1 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X 4 5 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X 2 7 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If the move at 1 is sufficiently sente, black can reasonably claim the aji in that area is sort of under control. (If the ladder becomes good for white, black can sac some stuff and emerge intact, as shown. There is some eccetnricity in that my diagram has 2 white 2s - the first lives, the second cuts with the benefit of a favourable ladder.) However, white should tenuki 1 currently - getting the timing right is hard.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:23 am

@drmwc:

Interesting. But if black's going to take gote here wouldn't it have been better to not give white h18 in the first place? This is quite a big territorial loss, but the hanging connection is more eye-rich and a bit further to the right so that area is harder to invade now. (35 could also be at a which creates some aji in the left side, and 34 could do something against corner first but eventually white will connect and black will live). Of course the fact some now-gone line is preferable doesn't mean it's not a good move now, but it's rather admitting defeat. Then again admitting you made a mistake and being patient is a valuable skill in Go I could sometimes do with more...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

drmwc · Post by **drmwc** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:01 am

Uberdude:

Uberdude wrote:@drmwc:

Interesting. But if black's going to take gote here wouldn't it have been better to not give white h18 in the first place? This is quite a big territorial loss, but the hanging connection is more eye-rich and a bit further to the right so that area is harder to invade now. (35 could also be at a which creates some aji in the left side, and 34 could do something against corner first but eventually white will connect and black will live). Of course the fact some now-gone line is preferable doesn't mean it's not a good move now, but it's rather admitting defeat. Then again admitting you made a mistake and being patient is a valuable skill in Go I could sometimes do with more...

$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I completely agree that black's approach has been supoptimal, and lost a few points. But so has white's:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . 9 . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

28 seems better as the solid connection, for example.

Going back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 5 4 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X a . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black 23 isn't joseki, so could well be an overplay. (I actually think it may be quite a good move.) However, White's moves didn't exploit it at all - as played, black gets a useful wall. lives in the corner, and white doesn't get much territory. (My preference was the sequence shown, which gives black less help. Playing directly at a may also be good, but it's hard to read out after white wedges. This isn't completely clear-cut - black has a number of ways to cuts in the diagram which may become good moves.)

Compare the game to a standard joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . . 7 . . 9 . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White has more territory here than in the game, and black has less. Black's main consolation is that the marked white stone may be a bit over-concentrated, but that also is true in the actual game.

So, in summary, I think black's actually doing quite well here, and can afford the slow connection.

I may be wrong, of course!

Aidoneus · Post by **Aidoneus** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:07 am

Still in suspense...

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:13 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This was my other choice, but I decided that the area I actually played was much more "border of two moyo"-ish and deserved priority.

Aidoneus · Post by **Aidoneus** » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:58 pm

Reset and the suspense builds again. Thank you for playing this public game, and for all of the kibitzers, too!

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:20 am

Yeah, the double Keima is never bad? : D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X 4 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I thought about playing this (might have already wrote about it in earlier posts) but I was kind of worried about my shape. After :w42:

I could play :b43:

but this in itself is already uber-ugly in my opinion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X 8 7 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X 4 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Dunno, something like this? Dango-alert!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This would be my blitz-move : D

Maybe I can come up with different ideas in the next days...

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:29 am

SoDesuNe wrote:
$$Wcm40
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This would be my blitz-move : D

Maybe I can come up with different ideas in the next days...

In this situation, the shoulder hit looks perfectly appropriate to me. It's certainly better than responding in gote.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:29 am

This one looks more appealing to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 5 . , 6 . 8 . X , . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . O 7 . O 9 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white answers meekly then you can press on the right to help the moyo there (though white's knights move up top reduces that) and then happily 3-3 having made 44 inefficient. W may resist with 44 at 45 or to help corner, or not answer at 48.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I plan for something like this: Getting some stones in the center and then playing the marked stone or maybe 'a' or 'b'.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:38 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ok, a bit of an exciting idea that might prove overplayish and a bit stupid, but I couldn't resist it. The general emphasis on the centre and attacking is not hard to see, but the damage to my lower side group could be too much to bear. What I'm trying to avoid is either of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm44 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . 2 . B . 6 . 8 . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 3 1 O 7 . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ok, that's horribly thin, and I'm sure Black has better, but this kind of pressed down whilst neutralising the middle plan Black might have I want to avoid ... and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm44 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 a . . . . 4 6 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B 1 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or

@ "a", or something similar. The thing is, White's pushes don't really achieve anything. I don't have much territory at the bottom anyway, so playing this way just feels ... wrong with regards to what I've tried for on the left and top side.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:30 am

@topaz

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:40 am

@Uberdude:

I'll be honest, at least part of my idea was basically going rambo. I have a habit of doing that when I'm not entirely convinced of the other options and how they play out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . 9 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . 6 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . a . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 6 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . 8 O 7 . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I had sort of toyed with things along these lines, but I suspect I may end up doing most of my reading in a move or two. :w46:

in the second one may well be a bit heavy, and I might play "a" with "b" if Black plays at :w46:

with

... but as that "b" can still be cut, I may well not ... I'll probably regret all of this in a few moves and spend a few comments cursing my impatience as I often do, but ... well, I'd rather lose and have a bit of fun than win and not

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:07 am

I'm sorry, I don't have much time right now to think about good moves here.

If it's okay for you, I would halt this game until - most likely - mid october. Otherwise I'll resign and thank you for the game =)

Life In 19x19

#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg