Who stands better in this fuseki?
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Uberdude
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Based on past posts, I am guessing that play proceeded something like this...
Black 7 seems to try too hard. White 8 splits Black 3, 5, and 7 into 3 groups, with a double approach pending against 3. I would probably have played 9 as a double approach. As it is, Black takes the corner but Black 5 ends up misplaced.
White 18 is clearly smaller than a double approach against the lower right. There is no way for Black to play on the left that will turn Black 5 into an efficient stone IMHO. But now the last thing that should be on Black's mind is putting Black 7 (F3) in motion. That should just create a heavy group that will be subject to attack. Shaddy's R3 is interesting because it leaves White the problem of how to reinforce the bottom. Anything like M4 leaves White over-concentrated on the bottom. So White probably has to jump straight up, leaving Black more scope to reduce the bottom. But Black can also consider playing something like N5 and then turning to the upper side and right.
Black 7 seems to try too hard. White 8 splits Black 3, 5, and 7 into 3 groups, with a double approach pending against 3. I would probably have played 9 as a double approach. As it is, Black takes the corner but Black 5 ends up misplaced.
White 18 is clearly smaller than a double approach against the lower right. There is no way for Black to play on the left that will turn Black 5 into an efficient stone IMHO. But now the last thing that should be on Black's mind is putting Black 7 (F3) in motion. That should just create a heavy group that will be subject to attack. Shaddy's R3 is interesting because it leaves White the problem of how to reinforce the bottom. Anything like M4 leaves White over-concentrated on the bottom. So White probably has to jump straight up, leaving Black more scope to reduce the bottom. But Black can also consider playing something like N5 and then turning to the upper side and right.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Uberdude
- Judan
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
A few reasons why doing something with f3 now is a bad idea and shows a bad attitude:
- As c10 is in the wrong place (should be c7, given that I would advocate high double approach for 9 in ez4u's line to try to make it a good not bad move), white d6 is sente so black f5 is gote not sente. That makes running f3 out much harder.
- As you haven't played r3 yet (and white hasn't tenukid it), the o3 g2 group is not weak and m3 has no oomph.
- Consequently f3 has little attacking power. The only reason to play a move like f3 so early in the game is if it doesn't simply live and destroy some territory, but separate white into separate somewhat weakish groups that you have some attacking potential against.
- Greedy.
- Not a big area, top side is wide open with big opening moves to play (as well as r3 like Shaddy said).
- As c10 is in the wrong place (should be c7, given that I would advocate high double approach for 9 in ez4u's line to try to make it a good not bad move), white d6 is sente so black f5 is gote not sente. That makes running f3 out much harder.
- As you haven't played r3 yet (and white hasn't tenukid it), the o3 g2 group is not weak and m3 has no oomph.
- Consequently f3 has little attacking power. The only reason to play a move like f3 so early in the game is if it doesn't simply live and destroy some territory, but separate white into separate somewhat weakish groups that you have some attacking potential against.
- Greedy.
- Not a big area, top side is wide open with big opening moves to play (as well as r3 like Shaddy said).
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Thx guys, I agree with you. Trying to develop F3 was greedy and bad direction of play.
Here is the actual game, just as a reference:
Here is the actual game, just as a reference:
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Two diagrams here. I wonder if Black and White, respectively, got it right to protect its stones with 1-3 or if they should treat the stones there lightly and play elsewhere. Also: Is 3 the best move to finish off the sequence?
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Uberdude
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
I would usually not play 2 at 3-3 but invade to prevent the opponent getting such nice shape.
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Uberdude wrote:I would usually not play 2 at 3-3 but invade to prevent the opponent getting such nice shape.
So would u play 1 or any move that anyhow secures these stones there in both diagrams or would u tenuki and treat everything over there lightly? That's basically my question. You are right that 2 in my examples is passive
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Shaddy wrote:Definitely 1-3 if I can get it. That's a perfect shape on the side.
Even in the 2nd diagram where you could get the corner instead?
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Pippen wrote:Shaddy wrote:Definitely 1-3 if I can get it. That's a perfect shape on the side.
Even in the 2nd diagram where you could get the corner instead?
If you are not going to finish the shape, you should not slide into the corner. It just makes your stones heavy.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
ez4u wrote:If you are not going to finish the shape, you should not slide into the corner. It just makes your stones heavy.
So in my two diagrams above and in your opinion: is 1 the best move there?
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Shaddy
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
In the second diagram, unfortunately, I think 1 is better than the empty corner. The mistakes would be labeled -1 and -3 in the diagram. -1 makes White's stones heavier, and -3 is where White forgets that corners are more important than sides.
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Pippen
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
So let me ask u guys this:
Black to play, best move?
White to play, best move?
Black to play, best move?
White to play, best move?
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ez4u
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Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Shaddy wrote:In the second diagram, unfortunately, I think 1 is better than the empty corner. The mistakes would be labeled -1 and -3 in the diagram. -1 makes White's stones heavier, and -3 is where White forgets that corners are more important than sides.
I don't think that it is clear that 3 should be labeled a bad move. White has to consider the whole board situation. That includes the exchange of 1 for 2 here. This makes the possible Black pincer/invasion more severe. If both 1 and 3 are bad moves, then Black should not use Black 2 as claimed in previous posts. Black should just submit and be content to play in the empty corner, right?
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21