Page 10 of 24
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:23 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:42 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Hmmm...rethinking this...
TegaiS wrote: ...
$$Bcm1 Too many cutting points in our position here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Too many cutting points in our position here....
If white hanes...
$$Bcm1 This is not clear
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This is not clear$$Bcm1 This is still not clear ( 9 at 'a'? )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This is still not clear ( 9 at 'a'? )Or this...
$$Bcm1 This looks good for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This looks good for black$$Bcm1 This looks good for black too
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This looks good for black too
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:41 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
BLACK:
Joaz Banbeck wrote: ... I'm starting to favor the left side...
I'm back to being totally confused.
After 27 years of playing go, I'm begining to realize that it is more complicated than I had first thought.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:01 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
Joaz Banbeck wrote: ...
If white hanes...
$$Bcm1 This is not clear
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This is not clear$$Bcm1 This is still not clear ( 9 at 'a'? )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This is still not clear ( 9 at 'a'? )...
I think that black does better with
here
$$Bcm1 This is crushing
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 This is crushing
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:16 pm
by Kirby
Joaz Banbeck wrote: @BLACK:
@black:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:17 pm
by Kirby
Joaz Banbeck wrote: @Kirby:
@black:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
Kirby wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: @Kirby:If you had to choose btween C8 and C9, do you have any preference?
C9
OK, if you both were willing to play C9, I could go along with it.
But, if you read my posts in the second half of page 14, I'm finding - much to my surprise - that the seemingly weak C6/D6 stones are not so weak after all.
I'm back to being ambivalent about whether to play left side or right side.
@white: We are still debating. We have no real concensus yet.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:12 am
by Kirby
Joaz Banbeck wrote: @BLACK:
Kirby wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: @Kirby:If you had to choose btween C8 and C9, do you have any preference?
C9
OK, if you both were willing to play C9, I could go along with it.
But, if you read my posts in the second half of page 14, I'm finding - much to my surprise - that the seemingly weak C6/D6 stones are not so weak after all.
I'm back to being ambivalent about whether to play left side or right side.
@white: We are still debating. We have no real concensus yet.
@black:
I don't think that C6/D6 are weak either - that's why I'm okay with tenuki, as I gave in my earlier diagram:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1But I don't mind extending from the marked stones, above, either. I think it's a matter of style.
There are many big points in the opening, and since white can't clearly capture the two marked stones in one move, I think tenuki is an option. White gets the opportunity to attack, though, so it's a question of whether our move is bigger than their attack.
I think responding on the left is playable, and I also think playing elsewhere is playable.
@black:
Regarding the C8/C9 thing, I like C9 because I think it's faster, and there is no real pressure on our stones.
If white had the marked stone, I'd be more inclined to be wary of an invasion:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1As it stands, if they want to invade this early in the opening, I think it's fine. In the opening, influence is worth more than cash. As the game gets toward the later stages, cash becomes more important.
So we can afford to give them second line territory if we get a nice wall of influence:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1They got some points on their turn, but that's natural. We got influence, too, so that's fine.
@black:
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:34 am
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
Kirby wrote: ...
That currently is at the top of my list too.
TegaiS, could you consider agreeing to this?
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:13 am
by TegaiS
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:00 am
by emeraldemon
@white
First thoughts: black didn't respond on the left, so I'd like to figure out what aji that leaves. Black's move seems to build some strength on the bottom and threaten to attack the white stone on the bottom right.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11The top is still the biggest open area, we can approach and either slide or make the loose/fast extension to "a". Either way it may encourage black to develop towards our stone around "b", My feeling is that the white stone has a better position than the two black stones on the left, since one stone is by definition easier to sacrifice, and the corner is still semi-open.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11Approaching from the right looks pretty nice, but black can easily prevent this by pincering.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11It's probably a bit early now, but playing on the left side around here looks pretty big to me, a chance to make black over-concentrated or heavy.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:01 am
by skydyr
@white
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1Do we need to respond on the right? We could possibly consider the attack on the right and an attack on the black stones on the left as miai, in which case I think we should switch to the top. Or, treating them as miai-ish again, we could take whichever of A and B we think is bigger, expecting a reaction on the other side, and switch to the top then. Our stone on the right is certainly lighter than the two black stones on the left, so perhaps that argues for attacking or an exchange, but black's position on the bottom is higher than white's, which argues against it.
If we don't provoke a black reinforcing move on the right, we may be able to aim at C later, or a shoulder hit or other reducing move next to it. On the other hand, a move at D snags the corner AND reinforces the right side group, possibly in sente.
$$Wcm12
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm12If we take the top directly, I think we have to be prepared for a development like this one. Do we have enough aji with R6 and enough of an attack on the left side to make this viable? The upper right is certainly good compensation for a small loss, but I'm not certain. To some degree it depends on whether black would proceed by attacking the right more, or by shoring up the left.
$$Wcm12
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm12If black chooses to reinforce the left, something like this seems quite possible. It seems playable, particularly if we can advantageously get sente in the upper left to approach the upper right corner. Perhaps we could follow up with A directly to provoke a response and then return to the upper left?
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:16 am
by skydyr
@white
emeraldemon wrote: First thoughts: black didn't respond on the left, so I'd like to figure out what aji that leaves. Black's move seems to build some strength on the bottom and threaten to attack the white stone on the bottom right.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11The top is still the biggest open area, we can approach and either slide or make the loose/fast extension to "a". Either way it may encourage black to develop towards our stone around "b", My feeling is that the white stone has a better position than the two black stones on the left, since one stone is by definition easier to sacrifice, and the corner is still semi-open.
If white approaches like this, I think black would pincer to prevent a good development on the top. I still don't like the slide into the corner, as I'd rather white set up a moyo that black can't counter with a moyo of his own to use the potential of the star point stone. That way if black responds with B, white's attack on the black stones on the left is a dual purpose move that expands the moyo while pressuring the black stones. In addition, we may want to invade the corner later, depending on how the game develops, instead of sliding in. This makes your A my preferred move for white on the top.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11Approaching from the right looks pretty nice, but black can easily prevent this by pincering.
This is why I don't want to approach from the right. Additionally, white's right side stone is low while the upper left corner is high, so white has more potential on the top than on the right. My thinking with just taking the upper star point is that black can't pincer it, and poking at it with a corner enclosure would be slow this early.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11Additionally, if black follows up like this, Black's left feels better than white's right, and black's bottom feels better than white's bottom, so I think white has fallen behind in the balance. Any white pincer on the left is subject to black jumping out and then playing a counter-pincer, and with black's upper right, the top has become a lot smaller.
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11It's probably a bit early now, but playing on the left side around here looks pretty big to me, a chance to make black over-concentrated or heavy.
I'm leaning away from this last one because...
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11I feel black has both A and B here to handle the situation well. White also has to think about black's counter-pincer later. Perhaps approaching on the fourth line would be better, if we choose this route? I'd also be happy to be one space farther, since it still cramps black's extension and has a good relationship with the upper left. It is a bit easier on black, though, so if we do that right away, I might expect tenuki.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:50 am
by andreyl
@white
I like the idea of K16
Playing for the stone on the right is a bit slow and we can always either slide into the corner or create a base on the side
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11attacking the left side looks a bit early,we might even call it a thank you move.
Now black can either counter attack on the left or pressure our stone around c later in order to build potential
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11If they will approach hoshi after K16 then we can pincer and start a fight.
For example
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11I think that blacks move at p4 is a bit slow,something like r3 might have been more active and therefore we don't really need to play for our stone yet
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:12 am
by skydyr
andreyl wrote: @white
I like the idea of K16
Playing for the stone on the right is a bit slow and we can always either slide into the corner or create a base on the side
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11attacking the left side looks a bit early,we might even call it a thank you move.
Now black can either counter attack on the left or pressure our stone around c later in order to build potential
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11If they will approach hoshi after K16 then we can pincer and start a fight.
For example
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11I think that blacks move at p4 is a bit slow,something like r3 might have been more active and therefore we don't really need to play for our stone yet
@white
here