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66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=1269

Page 10 of 16

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:02 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Black at B7 would have been much better, it gets out in sente. Then when black played this move, it wouldn't be ko like it is now. EDIT: wait, I missed some stuff. Ignore me.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:04 pm
by Chew Terr
daniel_the_smith wrote:
Black at B7 would have been much better, it gets out in sente. Then when black played this move, it wouldn't be ko like it is now. EDIT: wait, I missed some stuff. Ignore me.


Oh, was I mistaken? I thought with this, I either get out or live, depending on which of us takes A3? Am I missing something?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:06 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:20 pm
by daniel_the_smith
I was misreading all over the place. Blargh.

Shaddy, some numbers or something might be nice when you put down multiple moves... ;)

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:23 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, so I have two options. One is to try to run, and the other is to try to make an eye on the edge. There's no where to run, since I'm mostly surrounded. I expect this clamp, which seems to lead to a different ko that I HOPE can get me life... If this is ko for life, then the ko has risen in value as we've played more stones. That means, my partner and I are both more likely to ignore smallish ko threats to win this one. If I live here without giving up too much somehow, I will be ahead. However, my opponent will probably get fair compensation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 W 1 . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X 2 . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On an unrelated note, thank you all for following and commenting on this game. The assorted remarks have helped a lot. This game is instructive, and very good reading practice for someone who thinks he's not good at reading, and you guys are helping me to correct bad paths, as well as showing me other things I need to learn. Thanks again!

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:11 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

argh, picnic ko. this game is just not going my way. ok, let's do it.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:16 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 W 1 . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . X 2 . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shaddy, you can treat the above as a trigger, since this seems like what we're both aiming for. If you 2, I will 3. And... now I'm trying to weigh ko threats.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:00 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 W 1 . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | 4 . 2 . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:06 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Threat!

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:08 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X W . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . O . . . 3 X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X 2 X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

4 retakes ko.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:10 pm
by Magicwand
this is kind of stuff differentiate dan and kyu player.
at this stage black should not use this ko threat because he can not win this ko.
his only chance of winning is use two moves to expand his territory.

strong players calculate the result and look for a way to win.
what he played is simply giving up his chance to win.

i hope it helps kyu players to see how to fight ko.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:20 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O . . O X O X X . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . . . X X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X O X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In an attempt to make something that's better than an empty threat, this move threatens to connect to part of what we're ko-ing for.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:30 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O . 4 O X O X X . . |
$$ | O 3 O . . . . O . . 5 X X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X O X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

6 recaptures

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:55 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O B O O X O X X . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . O . . X X X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X O X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, that last one was a bad threat. I thougth that it gave me several followu-p ko threats, but they don't seem to quite work. I might be able to get a ko from it, but it's not as big a ko, so it's not worth the trade. I'm going to push through now, because it gets me where I need to be, threatens to capture stones, and weakens both sides. If I end up capturing those stones, his group will be running with one eye, which is how I can make points in followup. More than a ko threat, this is a big sente move that I would want, anyways.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:38 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X . O . . . W . O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . O X O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . O . . X X X O . O X . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . X X X O X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . X O O O O X O O X X . |
$$ | X . X O . X O O X , O X O X O X X X O |
$$ | O O X O . . O X X X X X X X O X O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O . O X . O . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . X . X . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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