10 Rated Games and Continuous Membership

[Kirby]

..."doesn't matter about the people, so long as they've got lots of points of view I can understand".

Maybe I am confused...

I'm not trying to devalue the worth of people, but I don't really see what's wrong with this perspective. If I cannot understand why somebody does something, I want to come to understand their point of view. Before I can do this, I feel rather lost.

Discussion like this is useful because people can come to change their opinions. We can learn from one another. But that can't happen if we don't try to understand one another's view points.

I believe that if you look at how people act as opposed to the point of view they express, you may still feel frustrated but you'll understand at a deeper level and be better placed to mesh yourself in.

This is a good point, but isn't what these people decide on a policy a reflection of how they act?

...
Is it just because you are (for example) a short-tempered person?

I am not sure that I can answer that better than somebody else, because I only know myself and the feelings that I have.

However, I will say that I don't like putting people into categories (eg. "This person is grumpy.", "This person is helpful.", "This person is stupid.", etc.), because a person has control over their actions. I would rather say things like, "This person acted grumpy when he said this.", "This person was helpful to me when he did this.", etc..

But my behavior might sometimes be seen as short-tempered... I don't really know how to evaluate that well.

I guess since you suggested it, there's at least one person that thinks that I sometimes behave in a short-tempered way.

[daniel_the_smith]

Thanks for adding your perspective, John, I find it quite valuable.

(And, BTW, I think donkey gets inserted automatically without the admins doing anything.)

[Kirby]

Let's go back to one other point:

Talking about outreach, expanding the community, flying to the moon and so on just gives them the heeby jeebies. It's no wonder they react by going into a shell, or what you call a club.

It may not be the same as the AGA's mission (I couldn't find the AGA mission statement), but the goal of the AGF is:

The American Go Foundation is dedicated to promoting the ancient Asian game of Go in the U.S. With our support, thousands of American children have learned Go in hundreds of schools, after-school programs, libraries and community centers across the country.

(Emphasis added from http://usgo.org/agf/)

How is getting heeby jeebies and going into a shell beneficial toward promoting the game of go in the U.S.?

Sure, it might be hard to be a volunteer, but let's remember what the goal is. Or, if the AGA's goal is different, let's identify it.

[John Fairbairn]

One other thing: If things are the way you describe with the AGA, and if I were to do something for the go community independently of the AGA, I don't think that I would try to "get myself accepted" by the AGA at that point. If the organization is not open to allowing people to help out otherwise, I don't see how it is useful to try to include the AGA in any efforts that I do.

If the AGA is not allowing people to help, how come it's got so many people inside the "club"? How come it just ran (I'm told) a very successful congress?

Actually, I know how you feel. Three times over the years I offered to edit the British Go Journal and was rejected, despite being a senior journalist, despite being able to provide tons of translated material, and despite the BGJ having a chronic problem with its journal. Along with T Mark I now work on GoGoD which is an example of independent work for the go community. Offers to allow the BGA to make use of the material have been cold shouldered. I resigned from the BGA in protest at people who wanted an end to e-mail traffic on the BGA gotalk forum. I often rail about the British tendency to cut people off at the knees, and you naturally see that in the BGA. There is a class system in the BGA. I think the current BGA is too full of crusty old people like me and I would love to see it do more, especially for young people.

But, you know what - I think the BGA is wonderful. Its tournament organisers are the salt of the earth. Officials who have worked for the BGA for well over twenty years (like T Mark) are gold dust. I am very happy that GoGoD subsidises the BGA's online tournament. I acknowledge with gratitude that despite my petty little protest over gotalk the BGA still lets me on the forum. It did belatedly offer me the editorship (but I turned it down - too busy on GoGoD). I would bitterly miss it if it wasn't there.

All I'm really saying is that I'm not perfect, the BGA's not perfect, but we get along and don't stop each other helping the go community. I don't think either side does or should expect anything more since we are all just ordinary people. If I really, really wanted to be a part of the inner circle I know how to do it - I've been elected to the Council before. But now I don't want to go through that sort of smarmying. I enjoy my "freedom". You sound the same. But that doesn't mean either of us should slag off the BGA or AGA, except as a bit of rhetoric. If we do something independent, that doesn't mean it has to be in opposition to the BGA/AGA.

What I'd love to hear you say is that, despite your frustrations, deep down you really love the AGA. If you can't bring yourself to say that now, let me know how you feel in, say, 10 years time.

How is getting heeby jeebies and going into a shell beneficial toward promoting the game of go in the U.S.?

It doesn't. But who gives them the heebie jeebies?

[Kirby]

...

If the AGA is not allowing people to help, how come it's got so many people inside the "club"? How come it just ran (I'm told) a very successful congress?

....

I actually edited my comment, because I thought I was being a bit unreasonable. However, it makes me feel very good that you say that you can relate in your own situation, regarding the BGA.

You're right - I am glad that the AGA exists (I don't know if I'd go as far as "love" ). I am frustrated with it, too, sometimes.

So I guess it is valuable to "promote the AGA" in addition to "promoting go".

However, coming back to what we were discussing earlier, I do still believe that active go players that reside in the USA, which are not a part of the AGA, still play valuable roles in the go community in the USA.

So I guess I'd be happy to see the AGA grow. But I'd also like to see go to grow in popularity in general - even outside of the AGA. If relaxing requirements for international tournaments aids in doing this, I'm still for it...

That said, maybe you can give me a diagnosis of my short temper

[kirkmc]

Just a thought. I've worked both as a volunteer and with volunteers. You need to bear in mind that volunteers are not independent, and need to be managed, and this can be time-consuming. Any group with volunteers reaches a point when they have enough people volunteering, and don't want more because it can actually cost a lot of time to work with them.

[ZeroKun]

Just a thought. I've worked both as a volunteer and with volunteers. You need to bear in mind that volunteers are not independent, and need to be managed, and this can be time-consuming. Any group with volunteers reaches a point when they have enough people volunteering, and don't want more because it can actually cost a lot of time to work with them.

This is an understatement. I myself have worked numerous years at Florida's largest anime convention(worst idea ever). Herding volunteers is a very difficult task in large numbers.

As to stay on topic, my opinion on this only comes in with the lapsed year, I'm the kind of guy who will forget something if it's not automatically taken out of my bank account each month. Perhaps a better idea would to setup an automatic payment method. I'm not a member yet so I have no idea really what's done and what's not yet.

I most certainly think that the people who should and can qualify to represent the AGA in international tournaments shouldn't have an issue finding 10 games.

[kokomi]

I can't see how a pro would have any problems meeting the 10 game limit regardless of location. They could be located in the badlands of Montana or frigid northern Alaska. All they have to do is announce their location and a willingness to play a rated game against any AGA rated dan player who drops by. They would be saturated.

But playing games is the pro's source of income. Say the pro normally charges $50 per game, that's $500 of lost income.

My view is that the spirit of the rule is to encourage participation in the Go community in America. Teaching hundreds of kids the game meets my idea of the spirit of the rule. As far as arguments about how to measure this in a rule, my view is we shouldn't have these sorts of rules. Encouraging participation the Go community should be accomplished in other ways, not with rules that reduce participation even more.

As a weak player, i'd happy to see pros come to play high dans and in return those high dans could play low dans and low dans play us. Like what's on kgs teaching ladder.

[kokomi]

Some people might be interested in the international tournaments, but not interested in the AGA in general. The punishment is not being able to be involved in tournaments. And the level to which such a person must "pay" to participate in international tournaments can be controlled by the regulations that are in place - the topic we are discussing.

If you are interested in having some icecream, but not interested in going to icecream shop to buy it, then... you just won't have it. Oh, you can make it home, so here's the other solution, you hold an international tournament yourself.

There are many requirements of a person to represent an orgnization, not only in Go. In CJK countries, many tournaments are only open to pros, will you ask why 'only pros'? Some amateurs nowadays play as well as pros. Do you look at it as a punishment to those stronger amateurs? I think 10 games rule isn't a very tough thing to accomplish.

[Kirby]

...

If you are interested in having some icecream, but not interested in going to icecream shop to buy it, then... you just won't have it. Oh, you can make it home, so here's the other solution, you hold an international tournament yourself.

There are many requirements of a person to represent an orgnization, not only in Go. In CJK countries, many tournaments are only open to pros, will you ask why 'only pros'? Some amateurs nowadays play as well as pros. Do you look at it as a punishment to those stronger amateurs? I think 10 games rule isn't a very tough thing to accomplish.

To try to summarize what I said before, it was my thought that the goal of the AGA was to promote the game of go in the USA. I do not believe that this requires forcing people to be in the AGA, and could perhaps more effectively be achieved by having less restrictions on tournament participation.

So to go with your analogy, if the goal of the ice cream shop was to get everybody in the country ice cream, they could very well provide ice cream to people that didn't drive into their shop. In the topic at hand, this doesn't have to cost the "ice cream shop" anything.

If the goal of the AGA is to promote go in the USA, I think reducing restrictions rather than creating them is a better way to do it.

[kokomi]

Many others either go to icecream shop for the icecream tasting (tournaments), or simply make icecream themselves at home(whatever chinese or korean clubs). Why is someone so special to ask the icecream shop to do a speicial delivery to his/her door? Especially this icecream isn't the normal one that everybody can have. It's unique one made by the icecream company from Italy. Because the shop wants to promote icecream? Then it's reasonable that the shop decide to give this voucher to someone who regularly go to there icecream tastings or product presentations. Otherwise why don't the shop just deliever it anywhere say, your 5k neighbour? Or someone who never heard about icecream? Here's ur ticket to Italy, surely you won't get the prize, but at least you'll know how top icecream is made? Our goal is to promote icecream, we don't care the prize.

btw, what do you think about the tournaments that only open to pro that i mentioned in the last post? punishment to amateurs?

Yes, yes, the AGA is keen to promote this game. But the one who wants 'free-tickets' isn't aming at promote this game.

[Javaness]

Actually, I know how you feel. Three times over the years I offered to edit the British Go Journal and was rejected, despite being a senior journalist, despite being able to provide tons of translated material, and despite the BGJ having a chronic problem with its journal.

Well that is a surprise...

[shapenaji]

John Fairbairn:

I think you managed to take this off on a very disturbing tangent.

This is not about the volunteers or their time. We're not talking about an additional tournament, we're talking about bringing 20-30 people to an existing tournament. And whatever hours are associated with setting up the trip, are hours that would have been spent even if those people were not there.

The money I referred to would go directly to the prize fund.

Please don't sidetrack us into the volunteer discussion again when there's no good reason to. The non-volunteers inevitably say something accidentally which the volunteers take personally.

[Kirby]

Many others either go to icecream shop for the icecream tasting (tournaments), or simply make icecream themselves at home(whatever chinese or korean clubs). Why is someone so special to ask the icecream shop to do a speicial delivery to his/her door? Especially this icecream isn't the normal one that everybody can have. It's unique one made by the icecream company from Italy. Because the shop wants to promote icecream? Then it's reasonable that the shop decide to give this voucher to someone who regularly go to there icecream tastings or product presentations. Otherwise why don't the shop just deliever it anywhere say, your 5k neighbour? Or someone who never heard about icecream? Here's ur ticket to Italy, surely you won't get the prize, but at least you'll know how top icecream is made? Our goal is to promote icecream, we don't care the prize.

btw, what do you think about the tournaments that only open to pro that i mentioned in the last post? punishment to amateurs?

Yes, yes, the AGA is keen to promote this game. But the one who wants 'free-tickets' isn't aming at promote this game.

It's not a requirement by the ice cream shop to do this, of course. But it depends on the ice cream shop's goal. If we can get people that wouldn't normally go to the ice cream shop to eat ice cream, I think it's a great thing.

Hopefully my neighbors start eat ice cream, too, even if they can't drive into the shop. Then I can talk with them about ice cream and how we both like it.

What I'm talking about is that I believe the ice cream - and the fact that people have it - is bigger and more important than the ice cream shop.

[shapenaji]

Okay people, lets not delve too deeply into the ice cream metaphor, it doesn't really apply.

For one, these people would pay more for the possible access to the prize, they're not getting anything for free.