[go]$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . 8 X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:46 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
bb.jpeg (6.99 KiB) Viewed 6624 times
I must think about this. I could push through directly, but R18 may be necessary to prevent his eventual N17.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:02 pm
by Violence
Chew(After the game):
One of the things that I found helpful when I was at your rank was that while I would see the meaning behind some moves during games, I would often end up being inconsistent when I looked at my games during review.
One of the things I did to get better was to choose moves that made my previous moves good, even if they were questionable before.
For example, Q7 is a questionable move. It may be playing too slowly, even if it forms a solid, strong shape.
However, Joaz's bad move of attaching allows you to change Q7 from a bad move into a good move by playing the hane.
I believe that Joaz hasn't played P9, he would've been in much better shape by just playing R13(where I think you should've played to attack his shape), and then jumping out afterward.
Instead, your nobi is ignoring your previous honte.
Try to consider moves that will make your previous moves good. It'll at least keep you a bit more consistent, something I still find to be a problem.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:14 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . 8 X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . 8 X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
As suspected, I need eye space down there if it gets really bloody.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:42 pm
by Kirby
I want black to attack the three, thin white stones on the right. They look weak enough to die.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:13 pm
by Magicwand
Kirby wrote:
I want black to attack the three, thin white stones on the right. They look weak enough to die.
@Kirby
that is where i disagree with you. to my eye that group is very light and not easily attacked. attack is good only if you have good attacking sequence. i dont see that here.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:47 am
by Kirby
Magicwand wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I want black to attack the three, thin white stones on the right. They look weak enough to die.
@Kirby
that is where i disagree with you. to my eye that group is very light and not easily attacked. attack is good only if you have good attacking sequence. i dont see that here.
@Magicwand
I trust your judgement. In fact, I have not determined a "good attacking sequence". But it is my instinct to try to attack since the stones seem weak. Maybe this is my problem (not always try to seek the result of an idea). The stones feel weak to me, so I would probably try to attack them in a game...
Writing things out like this make me wonder about your earlier comment that, the game of go is complex, so you do not always try to figure out how the opponent will play. At least it seems to me that you sometimes play on instinct... How do you contrast this idea with the idea of not attacking without having a good attacking sequence?
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:19 am
by Magicwand
Kirby wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I want black to attack the three, thin white stones on the right. They look weak enough to die.
@Kirby
that is where i disagree with you. to my eye that group is very light and not easily attacked. attack is good only if you have good attacking sequence. i dont see that here.
@Magicwand
I trust your judgement. In fact, I have not determined a "good attacking sequence". But it is my instinct to try to attack since the stones seem weak. Maybe this is my problem (not always try to seek the result of an idea). The stones feel weak to me, so I would probably try to attack them in a game...
Writing things out like this make me wonder about your earlier comment that, the game of go is complex, so you do not always try to figure out how the opponent will play. At least it seems to me that you sometimes play on instinct... How do you contrast this idea with the idea of not attacking without having a good attacking sequence?
@Kirby
since you somewhat understand korean, you should be able to see "Mac" (which means vital point) at first glance. that will help you read if the group is in danger or not.
if white plays at "a" then it is pretty much alive.
$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . 8 X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O a . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
i did that reading in few second because i know my vital points. weaker players will consider many many variations that are useless because they dont have sense of vital points. variation should be a series of vital points. then there are limited variations you should consider.
only way to improve your reading is practicing L&D IMO. they will give you sense of what is vital points.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:48 am
by Chew Terr
$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X 0 . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X 0 . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
This gives white a little more forcing aji in the corner, but prevents a ko that could be created by immediately atari-ing. I really want to connect at P15, but don't think I can, as then I just have a weak group. Fairly sure I messed up somewhere locally, and that Violence's hide block will show me where...
Violence: Thanks, I'm sure the contents of that block will be helpful, after.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:52 am
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
This gives me eye space in sente. More importantly, it means that Q18 is no longer a big issue. I think that my honorable opponent's last should have been the capture.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:58 am
by Chew Terr
$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X C 2 . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X C 2 . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
That's one capture each, right? Sorry, don't have time to check backwards right now.
All of a sudden, I feel like I might be falling behind quickly. I need to see how this fight goes, then count.
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:45 pm
by Kirby
@Magicwand
Thank you for the explanation. Maek/mac is definitely important to see. Up until now, I've thought of the "knowledge of maek/mac" on a continuous scale rather than a binary one. In other words, I never felt that "you know make or you don't", but rather that you could get better and better at seeing maek/mac.
Obviously I do not know vital points as well as I should, but during a game, isn't it still important to consider whatever variations you can at your current level, in order to stretch your "maek/mac ability"?
Or is it really a binary trait (eg. "You see maek or you don't")?
Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:44 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X 3 X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm51 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . 4 5 X . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
Comments for everyone else:
Until recently, this game was going badly. He came out way better on the left then I expected. In the last several moves he seems to be striving for certainty by playing very conservatively when he should have been playing aggressively to exploit my weak right side group. The result is that my upper right is safe and my right side can only be attacked if he is willing to create an eyeless group in the center.
That eyeless group looks like this:
$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O 4 O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . 8 . 3 O X . X . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . 5 1 2 X 7 . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O 6 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O 4 O X X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . 8 . 3 O X . X . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . 5 1 2 X 7 . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . O 6 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------------------------[/go]
This can lead to some fighting where I think I can outplay him. If he doesn't fight like this, my upper side can get real big. For the first time since he played F7 I am feeling that I may have a decent chance of winning this.
