To elaborate: 1) Chew thinks the bottom side group is unconditionally alive, so I base my positional evaluation on that. 2) The top moyo is huge. Not as solid, but bigger than the black one at the left. 3) White has no weak groups (see 1), so a reduction of the center is not that unlikely to work. And black doesn't have that much territory elsewhere. 4) Even without the bottom side group being alive, I wouldn't resign, because I'd link to find out whether Fuego is able to find a killing line. It's not even 100% shut in...
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:10 am
by emeraldemon
Well, I've already admitted to a slight pro-Fuego bias, so perhaps you shouldn't take my opinion I will say that in your position, Fuego would not resign.
$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm81 Sequence part 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . 7 1 4 5 X X X . . O O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X O X X O X O X . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 8 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . O O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 9 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Fuego has clearly read a sequence that kills white, at least after getting and . But if so, why isn't the win % higher? Also if I read out this sequence, I would play it right away I think, even ignoring (or at least go straight for ). My guess is that the RAVE can't lift such a long sequence up the tree, so it's being played out at the point it was originally found, a few moves deep.
The question is, will black try to play it later? Will Fuego even find it again? (Remember it looks at each position completely fresh, without memory of past sequences.) Will Chew see what's up and defend? If white has to spend a move in gote to live, I think the game is probably a loss anyway.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:22 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . . X 2 . . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm77 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . 2 . 1 . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 0 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 5 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 7 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 8 . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Seems that the playouts are starting to focus more on trying to kill the bottom group, but it's still not too confident about the sequence, (white tennukis twice here). Question for observers: does black need to prepare with , or is it OK to go straight for the kill?
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:59 pm
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . 8 . 7 . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . 8 . 7 . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Seems reasonable that we're exchanging reductions, but I think my opponent's area was a bit more sealed, so perhaps the exchange is slightly favorable for me. Got to solidify a bit, if I'm to get anything at all, though.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:58 pm
by emeraldemon
$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 9 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 9 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's story time, friends of L19. This story begins with me setting up the parameters for Fuego to think. Tree size: 17,000,000 nodes as always. 30 minutes. Fuego has the ability to show the sequence it likes best in real time, which I usually turn on, because it's interesting to watch the sequences shift around. I hit "play move". Its first instinct is the cover at M6. I go make myself a peanut butter & jelly sandwich.
When I come back, sandwich in hand, it's considering a sequence something like this:
$$Bcm79 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 1 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 2 . 5 O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm79 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 1 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 2 . 5 O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's quite obvious that white (still!) won't connect at the top. It's just as obvious that if is at , the group lives. Frowning, I set up the problem on my board. As I read it, x, y, and z are miai:
$$Bcm71 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O x O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . y . O . z . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm71 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O x O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . y . O . z . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black can take any one of them, and the other two become miai for the kill. Note that E3, as Fuego is thinking, doesn't actually remove an eye, and in fact encourages Chew to live.
I finish my sandwich. Fuego still likes E3. The win percentage is dropping, down to 59.2%. My frown deepens. In my head I'm composing a mournful post on Fuego's inability to read. Then, at 23:45, Fuego puts down this sequence:
$$Bcm79 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 6 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 1 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm79 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 7 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 6 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 1 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I won't lie, patient readers. I want Fuego to win. I've been setting it up and watching it think for over a month now, playing its moves, being Hikaru to its Sai. When I saw this, I jumped out of my chair. "Yes! Stop thinking! You've found it!" Fuego kept me in suspense for 4 more minutes (26:40) before committing to this move.
[go]$$Bcm77 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . 2 . 1 . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X 0 . . 3 O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O 5 O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 7 O . O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 8 . . O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Seems that the playouts are starting to focus more on trying to kill the bottom group, but it's still not too confident about the sequence, (white tennukis twice here). Question for observers: does black need to prepare with , or is it OK to go straight for the kill?
Fuego has started to answer your question with in the game. However, once Black played L6 things have looked very dangerous for White. There is no obvious place to run to that is large enough to make an eye. I thought White would have to play L6 in order to breakout with a hanging connection or else play G5, G4 in sente if Black cut at L5.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:32 pm
by lightvector
emeraldemon and observers:
I'd guess that the playouts simply aren't evaluating the Q13 area very well for white. This would mean that in every line, white has to spend a move fixing it within the search tree, so that the playouts can get it right. It looks like fuego's poor understanding is really screwing with its reading everywhere else. If black actually has nothing big there but the playouts think that black does, then one would expect the funny case in the search tree where black never puts much effort into attacking there because it isn't successful when black actually tries it, yet white always having to tenuki to defend it anyways.
emeraldemon: is there a way to see what sorts of sequences happen in the playouts that wreck that area if white doesn't defend? Is any particular thing that happens there relatively consistently? And is there a way to see what sorts of sequences black tries in the parts of the tree where black does play there first, before white defends?
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:32 am
by Chew Terr
$$Wcm80 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O X O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 2 O 1 O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . 5 O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm80 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . O . O . X . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . O X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . X . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . X X . X X O X O . . X O . O . | $$ | . . X , X O X O . O O O X X . X O . . | $$ | . . X O 2 O 1 O . O . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . 5 O X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I resign. Thank you, Emerald Demon, for running the bot. I'm interested in looking through and seeing how the bot 'thought'. I was feeling a bit leery of this group, but I kept feeling that if I took gote to defend it, I'd just be too far behind, so I had to hope I was okay and keep an eye out for ways to make a group for M5 to run to, just in case. Earlier, I had convinced myself it was alive, but either that changed with my bad attempts to stick my head out in sente, or it was misreading in the first place.
I'm fairly impressed with Fuego, I imagine that I could actually get some decent practice against it, if I chose to. I probably won't bother (KGS automatch is SO easy, and provides better variety), but it's an intersting option. If I would be in a situation for a long period where internet was unavailable, I think I'd probably give it a go.
And Emdem: we should play a game sometime. Seeing your name in the "Texas Go Players" room, I've been getting tempted to challenge you. =)
Now to read the comments! I suppose I'm the only one who can 'directly' learn from the game-related comments, so I may as well work on doing just that.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:34 am
by topazg
Good game!
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:47 am
by daniel_the_smith
I really enjoyed this thread, thanks to all three players.
If emeraldemon and observers want another CvH match, I'll volunteer to be the human.
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:17 am
by Chew Terr
Losing publically is embarassing. Losing to a bot publically adds insult to injury. Misreading a tsumego in front of a crowd, too. I'm not that affected by it, but I'm still left shaking my head. Part of the lesson to learn, I suppose, is to always consider long slides when you consider any slides at all. Eyespace is king, and if that would have made the difference, it's a big deal. Thanks to everyone for the interest in the game!
Tonight I'll just have to go beat up on some club members. =D They're more likely to fall for silly tricks!
Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:51 am
by emeraldemon
@Chew Terr: Thanks for the game! Next time we're both on KGS we definitely play. Or we could play in the L19 tournament: just make sure to win your first 3 games, and I'll do the same!
@daniel_the_smith: Sure, I'd be happy to start up another game One thing I'm curious about: how strong is Fuego with these settings? I don't think the game was too lopsided, Fuego might be a bit stronger than 3k, but I don't think too much stronger. How would you rate its play? Maybe we could try 2 stones, or just no komi?
Some thoughts: There have been arguments in the past about whether or not it's good for learning to play against a computer. I think Fuego is strong enough and "standard" enough (i.e. fuseki isn't too strange) that it could make a reasonable sparring partner, and not give players bad habits. In particular, if you're in the 25k-15k range, I think you might actually get worse habits from playing humans your own level than from playing Fuego! Of course, Fuego can't give advice on how to improve the way a human can. But if you don't have access to strong players, it might be a good way to get some "school of hard knocks" lessons.
@lightvector: I think what you said is basically right. In the post I made (viewtopic.php?p=69830#p69830) if you follow the first playout towards the end you'll see that black successfully lives on the top. I'm not sure of a better method than just looking at individual playouts.
and 
. But if so, why isn't the win % higher? Also if I read out this sequence, I would play it right away I think, even ignoring 
(or at least go straight for 
so it was already confident about 
, or is it OK to go straight for the kill?
is at 
, the group lives. Frowning, I set up the problem on my board. As I read it, x, y, and z are miai: