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Big Brother Malkovich #5

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8271

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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:32 am
by Joaz Banbeck
There have been three disapprovals in this game. After the first two, there was lots of chatter. After this one...dead silence, even from the opponents.
:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:14 am
by TIM82
for whatever reason, I did not notice your previous post earlier...

Whew. If black had changed to E12, I would have been very unhappy. This O6 should be no big issue - we have strength in lower right, so we can mess around in bottom without worries.

Now little brother, please forget you earlier ideas about e12, and play something sensible instead. Preferably look for a sente sequence in top right (or bottom) and then turn to top left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . C . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:51 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Hmmm...bump...

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:38 pm
by Splatted
sorry, I have seen it I'm just not ready to make my move yet.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:28 pm
by Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Comment to follow.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:46 pm
by Splatted
Edit: I'll re-post the move since I started a new page.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't feel the need to comment before because Joaz's correction makes sense to me. I didn't think he'd let skydyr's move stand, and the move he chose instead has obvious value.

I decided that my previous plan of pushing down on black would be aji keshi, but I still wanted to strengthen my two stones on the top so I decided to play a one point jump at K15. I was tempted to play something on the other side (N15?) to try and link up with P12 but it felt overconcentrated to have all my stones on the right side and the directions seems wrong. This way my strength is facing out towards black's stones and my weakness is protected by white stones.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:12 am
by skydyr
In retrospect, I like Joaz's move. Mine was not really an attack white had to respond to, and I don't think it was necessary for the stability of the corner. This jump may look loose, but black can sacrifice that one stone to maintain a strong presence in the center and severely limit any of white's potential there.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:26 pm
by TIM82
Approved.
But really, wouldn't direct n15 been better than the sequence of last three moves? Why did you want to exchange p12 for o6 first?

I don't like this kind of leisure one space jumps all around the board, would prefer something more sharp and active, but guess that's just style issue, not important enough for a change. And in any case I can't quarantee good results from moves I have considered - I quess I'm too unfamiliar with these kind of situations... In any case, strenghtening the two stone seems like it can open up all kind of possibilities in both adjacent corners.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:28 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I think that the obvious and simple response at H15 looks good for us. White gets a safer group with modest territorial prospects, while we get about 20 points of almost secure territory.

I'll be surprised if younger brother does not play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:24 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems like an easy solidifying move. I've been thinking of a one space jump up from black's last move as well, but I don't think I'd get enough out of an exchange of the right for top left to make it sente.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:11 am
by Joaz Banbeck
I wholeheartedly approve.
:tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

The exchange of K15 for H15 is a net profit for us. And it is more than three points, IMO. I'm surprised that opposing elder brother approved K15.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:02 am
by schultz
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I wholeheartedly approve.
:tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

The exchange of K15 for H15 is a net profit for us. And it is more than three points, IMO. I'm surprised that opposing elder brother approved K15.


For Joaz:
Thanks for these sorts of comments! It adds a lot of depth to these games to see what you're thinking in relation to your own little brothers play, and especially with the approvals (or not) from your opponent!

Specific question about the previous (opponents) move. Where would you have preferred to play? K15 looks like a decent move to me for supporting the two white stones on top, and giving options against both corners. Maybe N15 better? Something more sharp?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:44 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
schultz wrote:...
... Where would you have preferred to play? K15 looks like a decent move to me for supporting the two white stones on top, and giving options against both corners. Maybe N15 better? Something more sharp?


K15 doesn't really have much effect on both corners. It certainly makes an invasion of the upper left much easier, but it doesn't really affect the upper right.

If I were playing white, and were determined to do something up top, I would have done something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


It threatens this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...which not only takes most of the right side but now threatens an invasion in the upper right.
Then if black responds like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white invades the upper left.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:16 am
by Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 :b6: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . 2 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems like a good way of limiting black's potential on the bottom while also building up mine on the side. If I can build a wall in sente I'll probably play E10. If black replies to that with E12 I think the exchange will have been good for white.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:55 am
by skydyr
Assuming this gets approved, I think black is pretty happy to defend on the third line. White is trying to get a bigger center since he is behind on points, but I don't think that this can be easily accomplished. Black has support on three sides and trying to build on the top will also help black build his moyo into territory.
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