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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:03 pm
by Magicwand
for obs only:
as i look at the board position, i try to find out what is the difference between black and white.
i think every white stone is very light and not easily attacked.
OC black stone is in inefficient awkward shape.
although i am still trailing i dont think i am down too much.
one example of their efficiency can be seen at their last two move.
you can see that black is doing nothing with that two move.
while white is gaining points and stealing eyespace of black group.
although i dont have the flow yet i think i will get that flow soon enough because i already have a base for the flow.
below sequence is what i am trying for. if i get that sequence...game will be over soon.
$$Bcm25 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
i dont think they will give me that sequence.
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:18 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[kirby] When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...
[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )
I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.
[Kirby] Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).
[daniel the smith] Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?
[JoazBanbeck] Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )
BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.
[Dusk Eagle] I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at ''e''. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.
[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.
[Dusk Eagle] I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.
[Kirby] I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.
[daniel the smith] 1.0 for ''e''.
[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.
To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.
[daniel the smith] I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!
[Dusk Eagle] I'm also voting ''e''.
----
[go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 38.A.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 3 4 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X 2 X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
is a bit worrying to me ([Kirby]).
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 1 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . 3 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . 5 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . 7 6 . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[JoazBanbeck] I'm not worried. I like 'a'.
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[Kirby] Maybe we can live on top with our sente, but we may strengthen white in the process. I guess we should make sure that we are ready for such a scenario.
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[Kirby] Also, it might be kind of tough to live, too. White has some forcing moves. I'd like to make sure we consider every possibility about not dying before playing away from the top... :-)
----
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.C.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[JoazBanbeck] I like this better than 'a', because it has the same benefits of threatening to conect, but it does not allow white the slide at 'x', as 'a' does.
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.E.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 1 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[JoazBanbeck] I think that we have to do something about our left side group.
[Dusk Eagle] After this, can't we just slide to ''f''? If white plays ''c'', we nobi and cut, if white plays something less severe, we're in the clear. White might try ''g'' but I think we can handle that fine too.[/hide][/kirby]
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:38 am
by Magicwand
???
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:22 am
by Kirby
I think DuskEagle meant to post this:
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
=== Discussion for black 38 ===
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . e . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[kirby] When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...
[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )
I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.
[Kirby] Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).
[daniel the smith] Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?
[JoazBanbeck] Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )
BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.
[Dusk Eagle] I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at ''e''. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.
[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.
[Dusk Eagle] I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.
[Kirby] I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.
[daniel the smith] 1.0 for ''e''.
[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.
To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.
[daniel the smith] I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!
[Dusk Eagle] I'm also voting ''e''.
[Kirby] I guess I'll switch to 1.0 for 'e'.[/hide][/kirby]
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:15 am
by Magicwand
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
i see a little hole size of a pinhead. if i can take advantage of this flow then i will be ahead for sure.
IMO black should have jump a or b.
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
below is what i expect to happen.(in sente)
$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:44 am
by Joaz Banbeck
To observers:
I tried to warn them about this move.
...
[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.
...
[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.
...
$$Bc Diagram 38.E.1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Diagram 38.E.1
[JoazBanbeck] I think that we have to do something about our left side group....
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:41 pm
by daniel_the_smith
$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
=== Discussion for black 40 ===
$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
[daniel the smith]: I propose ''a''. Now that we can push through at ''z'' I don't think our two stones are important.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[kirby] I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.
[JoazBanbeck] I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.
[Dusk Eagle] It may be heavy, but I'm going to vote ''b'' to save our two stones. I think it's better than the alternative of giving them up.
[daniel the smith] @Joaz: Lol. Ok, I vote 1.0 for ''a'' also, so I'll play that in a bit unless someone beats me to it.
%%%%
[go]$$Bc Diagram 40.A.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 6 . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[daniel the smith] This looks so good for us that I think MW will not play it.
[JoazBanbeck] This looks so good for MW that I think he will play it.
%%%%
[go]$$Bc Diagram 40.A.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[daniel the smith] This looks great to me, also.[/hide][/kirby]
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:53 pm
by Magicwand
that was fast
$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:31 pm
by Tooveli
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:32 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I think that the idea of 'gang malkovich' may be a failure. ( I'm not being negative when I say that. I half expected it. It, like other malkovich variations, was an experiment. If I can learn something from them, I'm happy. If they are successful and others enjoy them AND I learn something, I'm delighted. )
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:00 pm
by Dusk Eagle
It started off fun and interesting, but after a little while it has lost a lot of its luster. I think you captured it best when you said,
Joaz wrote: I guess that the problem is that it lacks a personal feel that go games usually have. It is no longer 'my' game. Many of the moves were ones that I would not have chosen. While I can intellectually appreciate the virtues of those moves, they don't feel like 'my' moves.
That lack of personal investment in the game makes it hard for me to keep interested over long periods of time.
I do think it is an interesting concept, and it seems to reveal how differently we all understand the game. I think I can also say that Magicwand is stronger than the five of us working together
. But now, I feel I'm only continuing to contribute out of obligation, and would be fine with stopping.
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:12 pm
by Kirby
I vote 0.5 for resigning, and 0.5 for not resigning.
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:07 pm
by daniel_the_smith
I enjoyed the experiment. I think it's difficult because it requires so much effort to communicate between team members, it's time-consuming, which is why I only checked the sensei's page once per day if that. So, let's resign.
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:43 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Ok, I think we have a majority.
Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:26 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Magicwand wrote: for obs:
this is what i would have played.
can you see that black is riding the rhythm?
what they played is not what i expected from dan level players.
i guess 5 low dans = kyu level
$$B Prisoners:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Prisoners:
Looking back, I am astonished that we didn't play this, it's so
obvious ...
