Life In 19x19

16kyu-17kyu is pretty extreme, I think the lowest IGS goes is 18 kyu. I wouldn't be too upset about it. Though I have noticed that westerners tend to progress through the servers as their strength increases. I don't see many Tygem players below 7kyu, and only KGS supports infinitely weak kyu ranks.

This is a common complaint for many IGS member starting out there.

This response is not meant for the original poster, it's only my thoughts about Go in my short playing time.

I play on IGS and find the competition different than KGS. I am still in the DDK ranking but it seems to me that the 16ks on IGS are equal to about 11k on KGS. KGS has me at a higher rank than IGS.

I definitely notice that the players in the DDK range on IGS are more technical players than similar ranked KGS. Karaklis referenced a nice chart of the difference in rankings.

I prefer the stronger competition on IGS. It is the only way you're going to improve. Also, worrying about rank is not going to help you improve but only make the situation worse.

In my younger days, I was a Judoka. Go reminds me a lot of Judo. When you first start a marital art, you're going to take a lot of beatings. Then one day you start giving the beatings, if you stick with it. I saw many people come and go in Judo who could not take losing or being dominated. It's hard on the Ego to lose, if you do not have the right mind set. Many people just expect to get better with out the blood and sweat. I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work. Instead, focusing on your weak areas and strengthening them will be much more beneficial than becoming emotional or too tied to ones ranking. Holding on to things is the surest way to suffering.

Another problem that I see is the equating of game playing with intelligence. I enjoy playing many different types of games. I've been in several gaming groups and played with people whose whole life and well being depended on winning a game. I like to win a game just as much as anybody else. Though, I realize some people may be better than me naturally. I will have to work harder at learning and understanding the game, if I want to beat them.

I'm of the belief that hard work, proper practice and discipline can take you far. In athletics, if you're body is not built for a certain event, then of course you can only move so far. But games are a mind sport, so they are not limited by physical talent. Sometimes having a highly gifted IQ is a problem. I've noticed some people who have a natural talent and catch on quickly at something are more likely to quit when the going gets tough. Where as the student of average or slightly about average ability will persevere. This is anecdotal evidence so I'm not stating this as a fact, only my observations.

With the original posters, I agree about the nicer interface of Go Panda. This is what initially drew me to Go Panda over KGS.

Justin2013 wrote:When you first start a marital art, you're going to take a lot of beatings.

QFT

Justin2013 wrote:I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?

wineandgolover wrote:

Justin2013 wrote:I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?

Well, as an American I have to say that even thought it may be a generalization it is certainly not a fallacy. The younger generation (under 30-ish) doesn't, for the most part, have much clue about hard work but is ruled by a sense of self-esteem. I see it every day in the kids I interact with in class and the people around me as I go about my business. As I say, a generalization and not true of everyone, but certain true of a large enough percentage to be significant.

DrStraw wrote:

wineandgolover wrote:

Justin2013 wrote:I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?

Well, as an American I have to say that even thought it may be a generalization it is certainly not a fallacy. The younger generation (under 30-ish) doesn't, for the most part, have much clue about hard work but is ruled by a sense of self-esteem. I see it every day in the kids I interact with in class and the people around me as I go about my business. As I say, a generalization and not true of everyone, but certain true of a large enough percentage to be significant.

I see. It's true, because in your experience it's true. Another logical fallacy.

How's this for a generalization? Older people have complained about the younger generation since time immemorial. Yet somehow humanity progresses. Weird isn't it? Shouldn't we regress if the current young generation is and always has been slackers?

How's this for a generalization? Older people have complained about the younger generation since time immemorial. Yet somehow humanity progresses. Weird isn't it? Shouldn't we regress if the current young generation is and always has been slackers?

I think we may be regressing. It is not uncommon to find many 20-30 year olds still living at home. I read some research a while back that 36 percent of Millennials still live at home.

Americans students rank number one in self esteem but are severely lacking in educational achievement. Clearly something is missing and it's not self esteem. My wife teaches at a University and has told me that she receives calls from parents about their children's grade. This has increased throughout the years. This is pretty silly when you think about it. A grown adult has their Mom or Dad call to change a grade due to their lack of preparation or poor performance. Many times the students will hand in papers that are horrible and say that it is an A paper. Or even funnier, the student will have Ds on their tests and think they deserve an "A" for the course .

I am sure that there are many hardworking students and young adults. I'm not saying all Americans have this view. Clearly though, our educational scores show that something is missing. It can not be money. We spend more money on our education system than most countries. America has to import in talent from other countries due to the lack of skilled or educated American public. There is a culture of entitlement and lack of responsibilities for one's actions. Perhaps, this could have stemmed from the Baby Boomer Generation.

Hard work and discipline bring about resilience in an individual. This is a proven fact. Self esteem is being proven as being ineffective. This is a real problem.

I've noticed that many young adults will not take a job because they consider it below them. When children did not live at home in their twenties or thirties, they took what job they could find. Most of the people that I grew up with took jobs where we could find them. We did not live at home in our twenties and thirties. It was not the norm to live at home in your twenties and thirties. In tough economic times, people roomed together or shared the rent. There have always been tough economic times. I do not buy the argument about the Great Recession and Millennials living at home.

Again, I am not making a universal statement that all Americans have this attitude. I am making the statement that this attitude is part of the culture. Hard work and discipline are not cultural values praised or esteemed in U.S society.

Personally, I like IGS(as a beginner, and as of now) precisely because of the disconnect between rating and playing strength. The reason for that is that you don't really need to care about the number you're given. You can play whoever, rating changes randomly, and all you are guaranteed is a very rough ballpark of actual skill. Too exact measurement of skill tends to induce rating anxiety, which makes you too rating-conscious to play as much and as well as you could. For that reason, you could view it rather like a feature that the server doesn't have that precise ratings, and for similar reasons I tend to recommend places like Yahoo go and PlayOK for beginners, to protect them from rating-consciousness for as long as possible by non-existent or really bad rating systems.

StlenVlr wrote:rating changes randomly

I'm not sure I follow this part of your post. IGS is one of the least random rating systems out there. It's very easy to calculate the RP gained and lost from games. How are you using random here?

KGS is probably the most random. Tygem is very stable. Wbaduk you can calculate but has a few more variables based on streaks and rank you're at that can make it more difficult. I would place IGS as the easiest to figure out.

oren wrote:

StlenVlr wrote:rating changes randomly

I'm not sure I follow this part of your post. IGS is one of the least random rating systems out there. It's very easy to calculate the RP gained and lost from games. How are you using random here?

KGS is probably the most random. Tygem is very stable. Wbaduk you can calculate but has a few more variables based on streaks and rank you're at that can make it more difficult. I would place IGS as the easiest to figure out.

Dunno, I haven't played on IGS for a long time, but when I started out, I always remember that I spend 100 first games at IGS 30k rating. I then came to KGS, and started playing, and when I was asked about rank, I told I was 30k. I then played and utterly demolished some KGS 16k player. Ever since that, I've always been kinda suspicious of any ratings IGS does.

The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change. It's something like 40 straight wins to rise 1 step. Rating reacting so slowly to changes makes it kinda pointless to try to make the rating reflect your own playing skill, and you sorta learn to accept that rating doesn't really tell much more than a very rough ballpark of skill a player has. Which is a pretty effective way to make you stop caring about your rating and just get you playing.

StlenVlr wrote:Dunno, I haven't played on IGS for a long time

This is probably the problem with the information. Many changes have been made over the years.

StlenVlr wrote:The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change. It's something like 40 straight wins to rise 1 step. Rating reacting so slowly to changes makes it kinda pointless to try to make the rating reflect your own playing skill, and you sorta learn to accept that rating doesn't really tell much more than a very rough ballpark of skill a player has. Which is a pretty effective way to make you stop caring about your rating and just get you playing.

http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/pandanet/60
http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/pandanet/64

I think it's slower than most servers, but you get about 100 points per win. 8d to 9d does take a lot of games, but most people will not need +40 wins.

I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.

I find the competition different than KGS. The openings seem better, at least to my beginner mind. I've never had anyone leave or abandon a game on IGS but on KGS, it has happened. It is much easier to find a game on IGS than KGS. Many times on KGS, I've only been able to play my friend. No one seems to want to play you if you do not have a solid rating.

One of the positives for KGS is the review features. It makes going over games and lessons much easier.


Few Questions on Rank:

Perhaps, the players on IGS are not as rank conscious as some KGS players. This is why it may be easy to find a game on IGS vs. KGS. Is "Rank Concern" a Western phenomenon? Do most Eastern Amateur players concern themselves with rank? Living in the West, I have no idea on this question. Hopefully, someone can answer it.

[quote="Justin2013"]I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.[/auote]
I personally know people who have like 10000 or 12000 games played with a single account, and they are not a school or salon. So maybe 15000 is not such a stretch. I am not sure you can "obviously" assume that they are school or something.

To agree with Bantari, I could easily believe these accounts are single player accounts of retired people who play a lot of go. There's no reason to assume shared accounts first.