Re: Alakazam is back!
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:21 pm
I agree that you have provided strong arguments.
I didn't go through any variations before I said anything I've said - even my blog post about the Joseki was done from my head without any caution.
I would really like to see some actual variations for the complicated clamp thing, as then I could learn and then teach them rather than (apparently) teaching something that seems may be incorrect.
I suppose I will read those out/play those out sometime when I have time, unless someone else does this first.
I was taught by someone pretty strong in the past that the descend was the correct punishment and that the hane was a failure to punish, so I guess I assumed from memory and shallow analyses that this was the truth.
Now I have to reconsider. I do agree that that variation you showed is not clearly worse for black and that black is surprisingly thick.
Perhaps we could say that locally it looks even-ish (maybe it's even better for black??), but perhaps the reason the descend *might* be considered correct is because if black cut off white's invasion from the approach move originally in the Joseki, he didn't have what he needs in order to justifiably place emphasis on the right side of the board? I mean, maybe in the end, black gets a wall facing a side that has white stones or at least no black stones?
If this were the case, I could understand people saying the descend is correct - it could be correct due to the whole board situation in which it would logically arise.
But...
If this variation *is* better for black than the usual double knight move wall variation, it could mean then that black should purposely pretend to cut white off and go for the bottom side, but then do the "dubious" hane and get a wall facing the right after all. This is pretty interesting...
Of course it wouldn't be so simple as that, but I can't help thinking to myself, "yes Alakazam, this looks revolutionary, but don't hold your breath! You're probably being stupid!"
Anyway...interesting!
P.S. I call the "double knight move wall) joseki the "Cattle Wall" joseki because you get a wall and the shape looks like a cow and is of course black and white. The knight moves shape out a head, the horizontal stones (wall and some corner stones) make the body/back of the cow, and the vertical white stones are front legs.
I didn't go through any variations before I said anything I've said - even my blog post about the Joseki was done from my head without any caution.
I would really like to see some actual variations for the complicated clamp thing, as then I could learn and then teach them rather than (apparently) teaching something that seems may be incorrect.
I suppose I will read those out/play those out sometime when I have time, unless someone else does this first.
I was taught by someone pretty strong in the past that the descend was the correct punishment and that the hane was a failure to punish, so I guess I assumed from memory and shallow analyses that this was the truth.
Now I have to reconsider. I do agree that that variation you showed is not clearly worse for black and that black is surprisingly thick.
Perhaps we could say that locally it looks even-ish (maybe it's even better for black??), but perhaps the reason the descend *might* be considered correct is because if black cut off white's invasion from the approach move originally in the Joseki, he didn't have what he needs in order to justifiably place emphasis on the right side of the board? I mean, maybe in the end, black gets a wall facing a side that has white stones or at least no black stones?
If this were the case, I could understand people saying the descend is correct - it could be correct due to the whole board situation in which it would logically arise.
But...
If this variation *is* better for black than the usual double knight move wall variation, it could mean then that black should purposely pretend to cut white off and go for the bottom side, but then do the "dubious" hane and get a wall facing the right after all. This is pretty interesting...
Of course it wouldn't be so simple as that, but I can't help thinking to myself, "yes Alakazam, this looks revolutionary, but don't hold your breath! You're probably being stupid!"
Anyway...interesting!
P.S. I call the "double knight move wall) joseki the "Cattle Wall" joseki because you get a wall and the shape looks like a cow and is of course black and white. The knight moves shape out a head, the horizontal stones (wall and some corner stones) make the body/back of the cow, and the vertical white stones are front legs.
