My copy of GoGoD has 25 games that began as shown below since Kitani Minoru originally played it against Go Seigen in 1936. Although Kitani once played the large knight's move at 'g' (when Go Seigen turned round and played 5 in turn in another game that same year), he is the only person that has done so. Virtually all pros leave 5 and turn to the right side of the board (see 'a' through 'e'). However, I have to admire Shinohara Masami who immediately attached on top at 'f' in a game against Takagawa Kaku. Sixteen of the games were played in 1936-1941. It then disappeared until 1990 and has popped up occasionally since then.
Statistics:
25 matches, Winner B: 40.0%, W: 60.0%
a: 6 times
b: 5 times
c: 5 times
d: 5 times
e: 2 times
f: 1 time
g: 1 time
Edit: Fixed some date errors.
P.S. It is perhaps worth mentioning that in the original '36-'41 period 15 out of the 16 examples were no-komi games. It makes more sense when Black can afford to look for a leisurely game.
How do ya like this fuseki idea
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ez4u
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Last edited by ez4u on Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Again, tewari analysis makes me uneasy about black's position:Pippen wrote: ...
Black 2 looks misplaced.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Bill Spight
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
You are focused onPippen wrote:Well, the idea is this: If White wants to get 5 it has to invest at least two local moves. If White plays this way immediately then Black will get am early lead. If White waits, then nobody knows how the game evolves. Maybe 5 will play an important role. If not, Black can always treat 5 as a "wasted probe", losing just 2 points while keeping sente. 5 serves Black like a mosquito. It is too irrelevant to get after, but it can drive u crazy in certain circumstances. That - for me - is it's value.
. I don't think that anybody is objecting to . (Although it is not exactly dynamic play.) It is the combination of and the approaches, 
and 
that is problematic. At least, this early in the game. Playing against this combination I would not worry about Black's plans, but would rather think that Black should worry about mine.
In this fuseki is self-punishing. Black has induced White to weaken it. Now, maybe your opponents worry about it, but it is Black who should be worried.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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wineandgolover
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
First, nice thread, Pip. It generates the sort of conversations that show L19 at its best. You've had some great responses.Pippen wrote: So basically the question is: Is the value of 5 so much lesser than if black plays e.g. a sanrensei instead? (Well, since no pro ever has played that way I know that I am walking on air here^^).
Second, maybe your 5-7-9 aren't ideal, and maybe they cost a few points, but at our level a few early points pale into significance compared to the mistakes we make later. If this opening leads to the sort of game you like, then by all means, try it. If you lose, the opening won't be why. All IMHO, of course.
Go should be fun for amateurs. Let the best pros and manga fret over "the perfect move."
- Brady
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Pippen
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
First of all I agree with wineandgolover. I play this split-fuseki-style, because I am not good when my opponent builds early frameworks. I tend to be too anxious in that case, resulting in overaggressive or overpassive play. Therefore I like to limit that and I wanna have "some stones everywhere" to feel "safer" (because with these stones it at least looks easier to invade/reduce -> makes me feel more comfortable -> better game performance than if you feel "something isn't going right"). So that style just "fits my personality" and so far it helped me. I also think that the higher (ranks) I'd come the more I'd realize the flaws of that strategy.
I am basically convinced you guys were right that my idea is - if we wanna talk Go analysis - suboptimal, but still this tewari method intrigues me.
Here's an example of what I mean:
The positon above is a good play from both sides, wouldn't u agree? Now I show you, how I can make Black look foolish, using tewari:
Now, 5 suddenly looks bad (at least to me!), because 5 could've occupied a corner. So it seems that tewari is not a reliable way to test a position for it seems to matter in which row moves were played. So how relible is tewari in your opinion?
I am basically convinced you guys were right that my idea is - if we wanna talk Go analysis - suboptimal, but still this tewari method intrigues me.
Here's an example of what I mean:
The positon above is a good play from both sides, wouldn't u agree? Now I show you, how I can make Black look foolish, using tewari:
Now, 5 suddenly looks bad (at least to me!), because 5 could've occupied a corner. So it seems that tewari is not a reliable way to test a position for it seems to matter in which row moves were played. So how relible is tewari in your opinion?
Last edited by Pippen on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Uberdude
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
4 was a bad move too in your tewari analysis. Tewari, like probability, is a powerful tool but used incorrectly can give you wrong answers.
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moyoaji
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Tewari requires that you play reasonable moves. I could take a pro game and play it backwards and say that both of the pros are terrible because of all the first and second line moves they play. That, however, would not be a reasonable thing for the players to do.
Really this is how tewari works. First, take the real game:
Then, remove the move numbers:
Finally, try to figure out how the position got that way. Basically, guess the order of moves.
Now compare and see if there is a way that the game should have gone differently. In this example, white probably shouldn't have played
at C8 and black should probably have taken a corner with 
(although I think I saw in a pro game once - there is no reason black couldn't play that).
Now, just because your assumption isn't correct doesn't mean the players did anything wrong. On the contrary, many identical positions can arise from multiple starting points, especially in joseki, without either side making a mistake.
Tewari is subjective, but so is a system like SWOT and many businesses swear by that. When used incorrectly, a SWOT analysis can be horrible. When used properly it can be fantastic.
The reason tewari can work so well in go is that the board does not really have a memory of move order. In chess it matters because previous moves define where you can move. In go, the only thing a previous move does is prevent you from playing there with a later move.
Really this is how tewari works. First, take the real game:
Then, remove the move numbers:
Finally, try to figure out how the position got that way. Basically, guess the order of moves.
Now compare and see if there is a way that the game should have gone differently. In this example, white probably shouldn't have played
at C8 and black should probably have taken a corner with (although I think I saw in a pro game once - there is no reason black couldn't play that).Now, just because your assumption isn't correct doesn't mean the players did anything wrong. On the contrary, many identical positions can arise from multiple starting points, especially in joseki, without either side making a mistake.
Tewari is subjective, but so is a system like SWOT and many businesses swear by that. When used incorrectly, a SWOT analysis can be horrible. When used properly it can be fantastic.
The reason tewari can work so well in go is that the board does not really have a memory of move order. In chess it matters because previous moves define where you can move. In go, the only thing a previous move does is prevent you from playing there with a later move.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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DrStraw
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
ButPippen wrote: Now, 5 suddenly looks bad (at least to me!), because 5 could've occupied a corner. So it seems that tewari is not a reliable way to test a position for it seems to matter in which row moves were played. So how relible is tewari in your opinion?
is also bad. The two tend to cancel out.Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Pippen
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Ah, ok. Is tewari commonly accepted as an analyzing tool or are there discussions about its validity? One would need to try to find a fuseki where everybody played good moves and then find a tewari where one of those moves looks misplaced to basically disprove tewari. Don't have the time now, maybe I'll try later, just so the sake of curiousity.Uberdude wrote:4 was a bad move too in your tewari analysis. Tewari, like probability, is a powerful tool but used incorrectly can give you wrong answers.
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hyperpape
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Tewari is commonly considered a good tool, but it is also agreed that it requires judgment to use properly. So I think your refutation will not quite work.
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SmoothOper
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Uberdude
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Yes tewari is an accepted analysis tool. It is sound, but easy to misuse. Dosaku developed it and he was one of the strongest players to have ever walked this earth; I don't think you'll prove him wrong. You are applying the tool incorrectly. If you stick a blowfish, some yeast, sugar and orange juice in a blender and then stick it in the oven and die when you eat the resulting horrible sludge you didn't just prove that cooking is crap, you did it wrong.Pippen wrote:Ah, ok. Is tewari commonly accepted as an analyzing tool or are there discussions about its validity? One would need to try to find a fuseki where everybody played good moves and then find a tewari where one of those moves looks misplaced to basically disprove tewari. Don't have the time now, maybe I'll try later, just so the sake of curiousity.Uberdude wrote:4 was a bad move too in your tewari analysis. Tewari, like probability, is a powerful tool but used incorrectly can give you wrong answers.
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Bill Spight
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
I agree,Pippen wrote: The positon above is a good play from both sides, wouldn't u agree? Now I show you, how I can make Black look foolish, using tewari:
Now, 5 suddenly looks bad (at least to me!), because 5 could've occupied a corner. So it seems that tewari is not a reliable way to test a position for it seems to matter in which row moves were played. So how relible is tewari in your opinion?
is bad in this diagram. I also agree that the position after 
is roughly even. What conclusion can we draw from that? Well, given that 
is fine, must be bad, too. Just about as bad as . Tewari works. 
Tewari is a technique for honing your judgement. But it requires judgement to use. There is a virtuous cycle to using tewari. If your original judgement is unreliable, then your tewari will be unreliable. But it will still be better than your raw judgement. So your judgement will become more reliable. And so will your tewari. And so on.
Your example does highlight one potential problem with tewari. It does not make sense to permute plays that have substantially different values. The 6-3 extension from the 4-4 is sufficiently worse than the 4-4 in an empty corner that if you simply assume that the two positions formed by permuting the two plays are equivalent, you can go wrong.
-----
BTW, I think that there is an interesting lesson in your example.
If this position is roughly equal, then switching the colors should make another roughly equal position.
Now let's number the plays.
But we have learned from your example that
is not so good. True, there is no open corner, but why approach a corner where your opponent has already made what would be a reply? So if is not so good, then is not so good, either.But haven't the pros started making such enclosures?
My hidden response:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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ez4u
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Needless to say this as been tried at least once...
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Bill Spight
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Re: How do ya like this fuseki idea
Thanks, Dave.
Note the placement of.
Note the placement of
.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.