[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:5, W:13 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . . . . | $$ | p . . O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
my thoughts
Black is not afraid to pick a fight...
the push at the minus zone looks interesting, and I would have played that if it was normal Go.
but the minus zones make it bad. I have to play one to start the sequence and black gets sente so he gets the forcing move at a and the big move at b. So this is not good at all for white
$$Wcm1 Score - B:5, W:12 $$ +-------------- $$ | . 6 . . . p . $$ | 4 3 X b . . . $$ | . 2 1 O m X . $$ | . 5 X m O . . $$ | . 7 m . . . . $$ | p . a O . , . $$ | . . . . . . .
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:5, W:12 $$ +-------------- $$ | . 6 . . . p . $$ | 4 3 X b . . . $$ | . 2 1 O m X . $$ | . 5 X m O . . $$ | . 7 m . . . . $$ | p . a O . , . $$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
the other obvious move is just to simply block black and keep him seperated. this keeps things simple for me which was part of my strategy.
This move also leaves me with nice aji, instead of the bad aji in the previous variation. I can play a to force black to play a minus zone. after I will play b or c. I'll decide later.
$$Wcm1 Score - B:5, W:12 $$ +-------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X 1 . . . $$ | . a m O m X . $$ | . . X m O . . $$ | . c m . . . . $$ | p 2 . O . , . $$ | . b . . . . .
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:5, W:12 $$ +-------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X 1 . . . $$ | . a m O m X . $$ | . . X m O . . $$ | . c m . . . . $$ | p 2 . O . , . $$ | . b . . . . .[/go]
I spend a lot of reading time last move, and he played something compleatly different. So I guess it's not a very efficient use of time, so now instead of reading out a and b i'll read them later if this turns out to be the board position. I'm confident that with a or b I will be able to get a satisfying result;t.
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:55 am
by Zwergesel
$$Bcm1 Score - B:6, W:13 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . . m B . . . . . . . | $$ | p . . O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B:6, W:13 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . 6 7 X O . . . . . . | $$ | X 5 X O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
It's not guaranteed that he will atari at and take the ko, but if he does and takes C9 too, he gets a ko for the life of my group, but I get a plus zone and he has to play on two minus zones.
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:53 pm
by freegame
$$Bcm1 Score - B:6, W:14 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . . m X W . . . . . . | $$ | p . . O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . W m X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Time to create some more aji and exploid the minus zones to my advantage (hopefully).
This is more like a probe than anything else. I just want to see what black wants here. Depending on how black responds, I either get a lot of aji, a lot of hidden move options, or black gets to play on the minus zone(s). maybe even a combination of those. I might be able to get a tiny bit better result on the board if I do not play this move, but I think all the nastiness will more than make up for that.
Some variations are below:
this is the most basic variation. black gets the minus and can't play the plus zone ( @a dies). next I can play the plus point in gote if I want or use some aji around b first.
$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . b m O m X . $$ | . 5 X m O . . $$ | . W 1 X O . . $$ | a 3 X O . , . $$ | . 4 2 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . b m O m X . $$ | . 5 X m O . . $$ | . W 1 X O . . $$ | a 3 X O . , . $$ | . 4 2 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .[/go]
This is a disaster for black. (a and b are miai)
$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . . b O m X . $$ | . 2 X . O . . $$ | . W a X O . . $$ | p 1 X O . , . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . . b O m X . $$ | . 2 X . O . . $$ | . W a X O . . $$ | p 1 X O . , . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .[/go]
like this black gets killed. @ a lives, but then black does not get the plus zone.
$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . 8 X O . . . $$ | 9 7 6 O m X . $$ | . 1 X m O . . $$ | a W m X O . . $$ | 5 3 X O . , . $$ | . 2 4 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . 8 X O . . . $$ | 9 7 6 O m X . $$ | . 1 X m O . . $$ | a W m X O . . $$ | 5 3 X O . , . $$ | . 2 4 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .[/go]
this does not look good for black either.
$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . . m O m X . $$ | . . X m O . . $$ | . W 2 X O . . $$ | p . X O . , . $$ | . . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:7, W:15 $$ +--------------- $$ | . . . . . p . $$ | . . X O . . . $$ | . . m O m X . $$ | . . X m O . . $$ | . W 2 X O . . $$ | p . X O . , . $$ | . . 1 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . $$ | . . m . . . .[/go]
I don't see any variation that is going to end in a disaster for me, so this move should really give black something to think about.
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:51 pm
by Zwergesel
$$Bcm1 Score - B:8, W:15 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O m X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O . , . . . . p | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:8, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . b X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O a X O . . . . . . | $$ | p c X O W , . . . . p | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Only move.
I think this was aji keshi for black. I now have to defend, while in other variations there could be a really nasty cut there (hidden move aji ect.) So, I think I should be happy with this move.
Probably a,b or c next all of which I discussed in my previous post (with a different move order). (I would play a, taking the penalty, but removing a lot of aji, maybe getting the plus point as compensation.)
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:16 am
by Zwergesel
$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O m X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O m X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
You left some coordinates in your diagram
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:53 am
by freegame
I have been trying to post a response since yesterday, but I keep getting errors if the post is more than a few sentences long. I'll keep trying though.
edit: lol, i just tried once more and it worked.
Re: Batoo(-kovich) #3: Zwergesel vs. freegame
Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:53 am
by freegame
Zwergesel wrote:You left some coordinates in your diagram
sorry for that.
$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:17 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O . X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . . X W . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:17 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O . X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . . X W . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Why does black makes such a mess of this... he is playing like he is 15 points behind... He puts the whole left at risk. I can't imagine he has read out every possibility. The best variation I can find for black is like this:
$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O W X O . . . . . . | $$ | p 4 X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . 5 X 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . m 2 . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:9, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O W X O . . . . . . | $$ | p 4 X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . 5 X 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . m 2 . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
After 5 white has sente and the top left, but also a minus zone and a weakish group. But at this moment I think I can use my hidden move to cause a lot of confusion.
I'm confident that I can win on the board without much trouble with this move, However I still don't like the fact that there is soo much bad aji and stuff. (blacks hidden move can cause serious damage on both the top left or bottom left.) The whole idea was to force him to play the minus point in the firt place. and leave the aji for myself, not the other way around.
I don't want to underestimate the power of the Batoo rules this time.
I can also still play "Batoo style"
Like this black has -15 points and I keep sente. This is consistent with the strategy I selected early in the game. I might loose on the board, but I will be 22 point up which looks like a lot to me. (I don't think black can win with more than 20 points from this position.)
$$Wcm1 Score - B:9, W:16 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 8 O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O 6 X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:6, W:18 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B O m X . . m . . | $$ | . . X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O m X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m O . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
This move feels right! It makes my territory on the left 100% solid and the only forcing move he has exchanges a minus zone, so it's no loss. If my 3 stones on the right are enough to counter the influence of his wall, then I am certainly not behind right now.
One move I thought about was here to avoid the minus zone, but it is has problems:
$$Bcm1 Score - B:10, W:18 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O m X . . m . . | $$ | . 3 X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O 5 X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m O . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B:10, W:18 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 O m X . . m . . | $$ | . 3 X m O . . . X . . | $$ | . O 5 X O . . . . . . | $$ | p . X O O , . . . . p | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . m O . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Note that I cannot play at because he'd play at to cut me off. Even if that means that he'll take 3 minus zones, he kills my entire left side, which would be very big. is also forced, because after he threatens to cut me off again. Since that means it's sente, this is worth more than the minus zone white has to take to start it, so I wouldn't want to play this way.
One more thing: I'm a bit worried about his hidden move. If he plays it at any time it could be at C6 or D7 threatening to cut me off, so he might bluff me into playing there, when his hidden move is in fact somewhere else completely. I must make sure that I can play D7 in sente, that means I need to make sure that E9 is a big enough follow-up.
I will play b or c. I'll decide later. 
and take the ko, but if he does and takes C9 too, he gets a ko for the life of my group, but I get a plus zone and he has to play on two minus zones.
@a dies).
at the plus zone. That would be an added bonus.
here to avoid the minus zone, but it is has problems:
at 
because he'd play