Life In 19x19

dfunkt wrote:

Splatted wrote:"this game is no longer fun" is a perfectly valid reason for a resignation.

I totally agree. This is the best response in this thread.

Sounds reasonable, but unfortunately is against KGS policy, so before somebody starts doing it, please make sure you are ok.

I think that, generally speaking, to resign means "I don't see how I can win anymore so why waste time and prolong the agony."
So this is usually what I stick to. I resign when I can't think I can win anymore. Very simple. No fuss.

Bantari wrote:I think that, generally speaking, to resign means "I don't see how I can win anymore so why waste time and prolong the agony."
So this is usually what I stick to. I resign when I can't think I can win anymore. Very simple. No fuss.

I agree with this. Also, I think a beginner should never resign - unless they can confidently determine that their game has collapsed.

Hi Domer, the golden rule applies: don't do unto others what you would not want them do unto you.
One of the first things an insei learns is when to resign. So you ask a good question. As usual, you get the entire spectrum of replies here. Very helpful isn't it.

I guess GO - as any other aspect of life - must be entwined with complicated politeness restrictions in Japan. But I don't think everything applies to western GO players too. Esp. if you play on the internet.

E.g: I like to play GO, so I play a game. I practically won the game but my opponent continues. I'm happy because I'm now playing an easy game and I like to play GO, remember? The thought that continuing to play would ever be considered rude is absurd to me.

Of course when they used to play a game through days and weeks that consideration would have more merit. But nowadays (unless time limits are so set that the opponent takes very long to play each move) it's not a big problem IMO.

Sometimes despite I know I'll lose I'm still curious about the final outcome.

Sometimes I want to take my chances and fight an uphill battle and see if I can win.

So you're a sandbagger? Now I'll take this opportunity to practice against a stronger player. Yes, endgame too .

The only time resigning should be mandatory is with the "absolute" time setting IMO. But I never play that because I think that setting is flawed.

What I don't like is when they resign after scoring. But that's not a big deal either (unless the ranking system takes scoring into account which I'm not aware of).

Sure it may happen that one loses an "already won" game. But that just means that the game wasn't really won in reality. It once happened to me that my opponent didn't want to accept that L in the corner was dead. So we played it out and I forgot to eliminate KO threats beforehand so it lived and I lost. But at least I learned my lesson and I will not forget that again.

What i meant by "trick" was that kind of wishful thinking that people have at a beginner level.

I say this because there are plenty of times beginners will throw stones into a large relatively solid piece of territory (or corner) and just hope for the best. If you ask them "what were you thinking playing in here?" the response is usually "oh i don't know, i wanted to see what happened"

I'm not saying its a bad thing but if the go game de-evolves into something like that and you think you're behind, just finish up the game and start a new one.

Obviously this advice wouldn't apply to someone of a higher rank but being in the beginner forum i think it was reasonably ok advice.

peti29 wrote:It once happened to me that my opponent didn't want to accept that L in the corner was dead. So we played it out and I forgot to eliminate KO threats beforehand so it lived and I lost. But at least I learned my lesson and I will not forget that again.

Under Japanese rules, bent L in the corner is dead. Any testing of if a group is dead or not takes place in a hypothetical branch where only allowed ko threat is pass. As such, your opponent violated a couple of rules to get that win.

Then again, if you used Chinese rules, this doesn't matter and you just lost because you misread. But considering how popular it is to use Japanese rules, I'm thinking it's more likely that it was a case of several rule violations in a row.

- If you want to win, don't resign - there are surprisingly many opportunities to come back. You may not make yourself very popular this way, but on the other hand there is an abundance of jerks online and it helps to temporarily be one yourself in order to deal with them later.
- If you want to learn, then as a beginner don't resign, because there is a lot to learn, even when a position looks bad. Controlling your emotions, for one thing. As a more experienced player, when you know there is really no way to come back and all opportunities to learn in this game, are lost, well of course ...
- If you want to have fun, resign whenever the game isn't fun anymore. However, you may develop a lack of fighting spirit this way. In my opinion, being soft is not fun.
- If you want to be popular, resign early. However, I don't see how online popularity is something to aim for.

I'm not with those who recommend to resign when you want, not because I want to moralize, but because there's so much frustration out there of players who feel their results are not up to their level. Stop resigning and developing some fighting spirit, is a first step to remove that frustration.

I'm als not with those who think resigning is a very important skill, because the pros know when to resign. There are many more skills to learn than when to resign. Resigning early is depriving you of many opportunities to learn: controlling emotions, positional judgment, coming back, putting pressure, finding weaknesses, when liberties become scarce, end game intricacies, re-evaluating the life of groups ... If anything, err at the rude side and don't resign. It will also teach you how to deal with those who never resign.

Knotwilg wrote:Resigning early is depriving you of many opportunities to learn: controlling emotions, positional judgment, coming back, putting pressure, finding weaknesses, when liberties become scarce, end game intricacies, re-evaluating the life of groups ... If anything, err at the rude side and don't resign. It will also teach you how to deal with those who never resign.

The most important question is: what is the opportunity cost? Will you learn more from playing on in lost games, or in starting a new game?

But to back up, perhaps we don't disagree. My criterion for when to resign is when the game can be straightforwardly won by my opponent, in an almost mechanical way. It's not enough that I'm at a disadvantage in a fight, it has to be easy for my opponent to kill me, or to play it safe, or so on. I see no value in gambling that this will be the one time in 50 that someone puts themselves in atari.

Quick and easy guide: If you don't know whether or not you should resign, don't.

hyperpape wrote:I see no value in gambling that this will be the one time in 50 that someone puts themselves in atari.

Indeed. However, even 5 kyus miss protective plays in one game in 50. DDKs often do. DDKs should never resign, and should always fill the dame.

Knotwilg wrote:I'm als not with those who think resigning is a very important skill, because the pros know when to resign.

Oh, I think that it takes skill to know when to resign, more skill than most kyu players have.

Besides, you don't develop skill in resigning by resigning. Practice does not make perfect in this area.

often wrote:What i meant by "trick" was that kind of wishful thinking that people have at a beginner level.

I say this because there are plenty of times beginners will throw stones into a large relatively solid piece of territory (or corner) and just hope for the best. If you ask them "what were you thinking playing in here?" the response is usually "oh i don't know, i wanted to see what happened"

Sounds to me like a good attitude for a beginner.