question about a clamp on second line

oca · Post by **oca** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 pm

Maybe in a ko fight where black plays

somewhere else to win the ko and then I can play

to concretise the

threat

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | X X 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:20 pm

oca wrote:Maybe in a ko fight where black plays somewhere else to win the ko and then I can play to concretise the threat

$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

OK.

First question: What other ways are there of capturing the

stones besides

?

Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first.

)

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:26 am

oca wrote:... I didn't know that site.

BadukMovies is a great site. Watch some of their free videos and, when you get to SDK (single-digit-kyu), subscribe. I think I gained five stones (9 kyu to 4 kyu) from their videos ... just keep your finger near the pause button. It often helps to think about a position on your own before letting the video explain the proper move.

(end of unsolicited plug)

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 am

Bill Spight wrote: First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?

This one seems to be better then my first try at "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Bill Spight wrote: Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )

tryied that but

is a little annoying... but

is still a threat I suppose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . O B B 5 . . . . , . $$ | X X 1 3 4 X . O . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

or even that : [edit] but that goes a bit too far I think...[/edit]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | X X 1 4 3 X . Q . . . $$ | . O 5 6 7 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:16 am

@oca: You're interpreting the order wrong. Bill is asking for threats before

, not after.

Bill is asking "What are local threats to make the cut"

Here "the cut" is

in your diagram. So he is asking you: Are there moves that threaten to make the cut

possible, since you've already shown that playing it immediately fails (in post #14 of this thread).

The second part of his question: "that also threaten something else?" then means: Of those moves that would make the cut at

possible, are there any that also contain a secondary threat, so that if black defends against the threat of the cut, white can do something nice elsewhere?

TheBigH · Post by **TheBigH** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:18 am

Heres my solution

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:16 am

Thanks, Herman.

I guess I'm not being real clear. (:

Big H, how about hiding your post for oca's benefit.

Edit: Thanks, Big H.

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:22 am

@Herman

Thanks (again), seems I have to improve my english as well

So ... I will say any of these moves may help white to play at

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]B $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | 1 X T c d X . O . . . $$ | . O a b e . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

@TheBigH

I tryied that one but didn't liked

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X a . . . . , . $$ | X X 2 . 3 X . O . . . $$ | . O 4 1 . b . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

but seems we cannot have it all....

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:25 am

@Bill: You're plenty clear to me, but of course we share a long exposure to the jargon and do not expect something like "descend" to be unfamiliar. I feel that perhaps oca was interpreting "threat" in the context of "ko-threat", and from that point of view it makes sense find the best two moves in a row.

@TheBig: What about:

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:39 am

oca wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?
This one seems to be better then my first try at "a"
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Bill Spight wrote: Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )

tryied that but is a little annoying... but is still a threat I suppose.

$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . O B B 5 . . . . , .
$$ | X X 1 3 4 X . O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . O B B 5 . . . . , . $$ | X X 1 3 4 X . O . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]
or even that : [edit] but that goes a bit too far I think...[/edit]

Herman was right about my second question. I meant what plays threaten

in these diagrams, and threaten something else, too.

But leave that for now and let's go back to my first question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

is good. Now, can you find all of the ways that, given

, White can capture the

stones?

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:43 am

Bill Spight wrote:Thanks, Herman. I guess I'm not being real clear. (:

No... no..., It's really just me

, when I read your message again it is really clear... I don't know why I didn't got it the first time.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:37 am

HermanHiddema wrote:@Bill: You're plenty clear to me, but of course we share a long exposure to the jargon and do not expect something like "descend" to be unfamiliar. I feel that perhaps oca was interpreting "threat" in the context of "ko-threat", and from that point of view it makes sense find the best two moves in a row.

@TheBig: What about:

$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X . 2 . X . O . . .
$$ | . O . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | X X . 2 . X . O . . . $$ | . O . 1 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

@Herman

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:49 am

Actually...

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:27 am

@ez4u: Yes, I just added it because I think it is a variation one should consider. If the surrounding stones are different, the "live in the corner" can be an interesting alternative. E.g:

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:08 am

Bill Spight wrote: Herman was right about my second question. I meant what plays threaten in these diagrams, and threaten something else, too.

But leave that for now and let's go back to my first question.

$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . . $$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]
is good. Now, can you find all of the ways that, given , White can capture the stones?

Not sure I got them all, but here are all ready quite a few...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W black 4 doesn't work... $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 3 . X . O . . . $$ | . O 4 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 4 . X . O . . . $$ | . O 5 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 4 . X . O . . . $$ | . O 5 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

works too to take the black stones... but seems we loose a soldier in these variations...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 4 . X . O . . . $$ | . O 5 6 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . , . $$ | B B 1 4 3 X . O . . . $$ | . O 5 6 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

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