[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
OK.
First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?
Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:26 am
by Charlie
oca wrote:... I didn't know that site.
BadukMovies is a great site. Watch some of their free videos and, when you get to SDK (single-digit-kyu), subscribe. I think I gained five stones (9 kyu to 4 kyu) from their videos ... just keep your finger near the pause button. It often helps to think about a position on your own before letting the video explain the proper move.
(end of unsolicited plug)
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 am
by oca
Bill Spight wrote:
First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?
This one seems to be better then my first try at "a"
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Bill Spight wrote:
Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )
tryied that but is a little annoying... but is still a threat I suppose.
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . O B B 5 . . . . , .
$$ | X X 1 3 4 X . O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X 1 4 3 X . Q . . .
$$ | . O 5 6 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:16 am
by HermanHiddema
@oca: You're interpreting the order wrong. Bill is asking for threats before, not after.
Bill is asking "What are local threats to make the cut"
Here "the cut" is in your diagram. So he is asking you: Are there moves that threaten to make the cut possible, since you've already shown that playing it immediately fails (in post #14 of this thread).
The second part of his question: "that also threaten something else?" then means: Of those moves that would make the cut at possible, are there any that also contain a secondary threat, so that if black defends against the threat of the cut, white can do something nice elsewhere?
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:18 am
by TheBigH
Heres my solution
I think the smartypants move is this . If black blocks the cut:
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X a . . . . , .
$$ | X X 2 . 3 X . O . . .
$$ | . O . 1 . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X a . . . . , .
$$ | X X 2 . 3 X . O . . .
$$ | . O . 1 . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Now if black blocks with a, white will connect underneath to the white stone on the right. If black blocks at b, white will plow through the black keima connection with a.
But if black does not protect the cut we get something like
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X 3 4 . X . O . . .
$$ | . O 5 1 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X a . . . . , .
$$ | X X 2 . 3 X . O . . .
$$ | . O 4 1 . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
but seems we cannot have it all....
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:25 am
by HermanHiddema
@Bill: You're plenty clear to me, but of course we share a long exposure to the jargon and do not expect something like "descend" to be unfamiliar. I feel that perhaps oca was interpreting "threat" in the context of "ko-threat", and from that point of view it makes sense find the best two moves in a row.
@TheBig: What about:
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X . 2 . X . O . . .
$$ | . O . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | a O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Bill Spight wrote:
Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )
tryied that but is a little annoying... but is still a threat I suppose.
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . O B B 5 . . . . , .
$$ | X X 1 3 4 X . O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | B B 1 . . X . O . . .
$$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
is good. Now, can you find all of the ways that, given , White can capture the stones?
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:43 am
by oca
Bill Spight wrote:Thanks, Herman. I guess I'm not being real clear. (:
No... no..., It's really just me , when I read your message again it is really clear... I don't know why I didn't got it the first time.
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:37 am
by ez4u
HermanHiddema wrote:@Bill: You're plenty clear to me, but of course we share a long exposure to the jargon and do not expect something like "descend" to be unfamiliar. I feel that perhaps oca was interpreting "threat" in the context of "ko-threat", and from that point of view it makes sense find the best two moves in a row.
@TheBig: What about:
$$W
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X . 2 . X . O . . .
$$ | . O . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X 8 9 . . . , .
$$ | X X 4 2 7 X . O . . .
$$ | . O 3 1 5 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
Re: question about a clamp on second line
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:27 am
by HermanHiddema
@ez4u: Yes, I just added it because I think it is a variation one should consider. If the surrounding stones are different, the "live in the corner" can be an interesting alternative. E.g:
If black is stronger on the outside:
$$W
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , .
$$ | X X 4 2 . X 8 O . . .
$$ | 9 O 3 1 7 5 6 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------
somewhere else to win the ko and then I can play 
to concretise the 
threat
stones besides 
is a little annoying... but 
is still a threat I suppose.
, when I read your message again it is really clear... I don't know why I didn't got it the first time.