Question about a moyo

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sun May 18, 2014 12:29 am

Let's have a look at the real world. Working with the GoGoD database in SmartGo Kifu (I am traveling and am cut off from my beloved kombilo!), we can find 31 examples of the position below. It is rare because the marked play on the upper side is rare in professional play. Currently White almost always plays into the corner at 'a' and historically the slide at 'b' has always been the main line by a wide margin.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are four games that continue with the 2-3 exchange below. In all cases White played next at 4. White 2 makes the left side less urgent for both sides so, relatively speaking, the bottom right is more urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are ten games where White plays 2 high instead of low. This makes the situation on the left side more urgent. Sure enough the results are mixed. In four of the games (one is an amateur game) White continued with four here. There is also one game where White played at 'a' instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are four games where White continued on the left side. In two games White played on the star point similar to the OP. In both cases (one is an amateur game) Black invaded at C17 and White blocked at C15.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In one game White played 4 one line higher as below. Here Black exchanged 5 for 6 and then invaded in the upper left corner. Interestingly White blocked at D17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In one game White played 4 one line below the star point. In this case Black switched to the upper right with 5, White refused to answer and played 6 in the upper left. The interesting exchange of 7 and 8 followed before Black attached in the upper left with 9. White haned at 10.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . 7 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . 8 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finally there is one 'in between' game where white played 4 as shown below. The plays at 5 through 7 followed and then White attached in the lower right corner at 8. Black haned at 9.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese Variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . 4 5 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So if we look at professional practice, I think we have to conclude that you can play pretty much whatever you like.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun May 18, 2014 4:44 pm

Abyssinica, was this post prompted by Shawn's thread? At first I assumed they were from the same person. My post http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 81#p165181 is relevant.

A few more points: c6 is low, q14 is high, d10 is close and high, r9 is far and low. This makes quite some difference to the follow up to the one space jumps in those areas. The first is what happens if the opponent answers the jump (usually this is a good exchange for the jumper but still it might be the biggest point on the board). Note i'm considered each area locally for now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This way? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's answer at f7 has a thinner connection to the 3rd line c6 than black's does to fourth line q14 (black is happier to answer). But looking at d10 it's a bit too close, though does help alleviate the thinness. r9 to o13 has some shape problems (q10 can be annoying later).

But because of d10 white probably won't answer as black's follow up at d7 is not so good now.

Also Bill's 2nd diagram with white playing f5 is a bit slack as white would likely play g6 there to get ahead. Something I am thinking is that d10 would be better further away at d11 if white gets this sort of development or else black can try to make it overconcentrated with this semi-joseki technique I like (I just chose black 1 as shimari to focus on the left side):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Me being too clever? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Maybe yes as white can play 10 not a $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O O . 0 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 6 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway... Going back to the original question one very nice thing about the 3-3 (apart from the lack of a weak group) at top left is if white follows the usual joseki you get sente and can use that to reduce the white moyo direction of the 3-3 wall: i.e. if he blocks the top side you could either m17 (probably too greedy in fact) or n15 (or m15); if he blocks the left side then play the f5 or g6 jump.

As for tengen or nearabouts I don't really like those sort of moves. That might be a fault of mine though as weak players tend to like them much too much and you rarely see them in pro games so I tend to be rather dismissive of them as wishy-washy, but perhaps pros have the selection bias that they won't allow the game to become one where it is a good move as then it is too good (or there aren't many pro mutual moyo games these days).

And if I were to add a move to the lower left, it would be simple q5 shimari, not n4 (bad IMO) or p4 (maybe ok IMO).

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun May 18, 2014 4:57 pm

MagicMagor wrote:P9 the normal continuation for the chinese opening if white doesn't reduce it first.
It will increase the lower side moyo considerably and reduce the chance of white invading the lower right corner.
Also it will protect the weakness around R12 a little bit and afterwards b becomes a good follow up.

White may gain sente but both of whites corners are still open while the lower side of blacks territory becomes really secure. My instinct tells me the position would be then good for black.

My understanding (with a little kombiloing to check) is that p9 is the point when you have one of the chinese openings with k4 a bit closer to the 3-4 corner (then reinforcing corner would be overconcentrated), with k4 that far both p9 and a corner move like shimari or kosumi are played.

Abyssinica · Post by **Abyssinica** » Sun May 18, 2014 5:13 pm

Uberdude wrote:Abyssinica, was this post prompted by Shawn's thread? At first I assumed they were from the same person. My post http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 81#p165181 is relevant.

You'll find the game in my study journal, but it's interesting that I'm not the only one who's created this board position in a game.

Shawn Ligocki · Post by **Shawn Ligocki** » Sun May 18, 2014 6:23 pm

Abyssinica wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Abyssinica, was this post prompted by Shawn's thread? At first I assumed they were from the same person. My post http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 81#p165181 is relevant.

You'll find the game in my study journal, but it's interesting that I'm not the only one who's created this board position in a game.

Yeah, I'm also enjoying the discussion of what to do next in this similar position

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:23 pm

I have created this position in some of my games as well because I play the Low Chinese a lot. I never tended to play the same move that Abyssinica and Shawn did, but I did sometimes. I more recently prefer to play either the large or small knight non-enclosure of the lower right.

I was surprised by ez4u's statistics because the upper star point move is very common in my games. I have also seen it in professional games since I tend to look for Low Chinese games on Go4Go - I just love that opening. The move was just done by Gu Li in the third jubango game against Lee Sedol (Gu Li won that game - although not necessarily because of that move). The moves are also discussed in Kato Masao's books and he gives professional game examples with that as well.

Life In 19x19

Question about a moyo

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