Life In 19x19

To answer the topic, yes.

shapenaji wrote:I recognize that my stated reason for female representation is self-serving. I also think everyone should learn go, that it's fun and that women will find it as rewarding as men do.

I my opinion, women (in general) are raised with a guilt ethic about 'wasting' time on things that have no practical purpose. That's why women tend to go more for craft-type hobbies, where you have something physical to show for your time.

I don't think it's possible to make studying Go or Chess seem practical.

Women are also very socially motivated, too, though. If there was a lot more social acceptance, if you could go to a party and tell your female friends, "I just made SDK!" and they knew what it meant and could have an actual conversation about it and be excited, game-playing among women would probably take a huge surge. Of course, it's pretty circular to say, if more women played, them more women would play. XD

We need some fabulously sexy role models (male and female) to promote Go and publicize it widely. That...is probably not going to happen.

(Disclaimer: all my personal opinion)

Inkwolf wrote:I my opinion, women (in general) are raised with a guilt ethic about 'wasting' time on things that have no practical purpose. That's why women tend to go more for craft-type hobbies, where you have something physical to show for your time.

Women are also very socially motivated,

Hi Inkwolf, combining these two aspects reminds me of a knitting club at a coffee shop.
About 6 or 7 ladies were having a good time happily knitting and chatting.

Another factor: co-operation (sharing/gathering) v. competition (beating your opponent).

In your experience, Inkwolf, have you found that women in general are turned off by the competitive, anti-social nature of chess and Go,
where two people (guys, usually) stare at the board
for 1, 2, or even 3 or more hours in complete silence ?

Which reminds me of book clubs: lots of sharing, quite social.

topazg wrote:I always wonder though, does it matter? Unless there are women really wanting to play but not playing because they were treated so poorly for example, I don't get the issue...

Well, even some of the explanations you gave imply features of our culture that we would probably prefer not to have (for instance "Women being treated unpleasantly (even just being leered at) by men in gender dominated tournaments/events put off further participation", and "Men putting women off by being so happy to proclaim women as less intelligent / less capable of such games").

Maybe the percentage of women doesn't matter per se (though there is always the diversity argument), but it's probably cause to pause and consider how women are viewed and treated in our culture and figure out what we might want to do about it. One way to approach fixing the underlying issues is to promote diversity along with other strategies, since it prevents the reinforcement of problematic attitudes and behaviors by lessening the number of insular or male-dominated environments.

Monadology wrote:

topazg wrote:I always wonder though, does it matter? Unless there are women really wanting to play but not playing because they were treated so poorly for example, I don't get the issue...

Well, even some of the explanations you gave imply features of our culture that we would probably prefer not to have (for instance "Women being treated unpleasantly (even just being leered at) by men in gender dominated tournaments/events put off further participation", and "Men putting women off by being so happy to proclaim women as less intelligent / less capable of such games").

Maybe the percentage of women doesn't matter per se (though there is always the diversity argument), but it's probably cause to pause and consider how women are viewed and treated in our culture and figure out what we might want to do about it. One way to approach fixing the underlying issues is to promote diversity along with other strategies, since it prevents the reinforcement of problematic attitudes and behaviors by lessening the number of insular or male-dominated environments.

Yes, I will certainly agree that it pains me to see misogyny or extreme feminism that often can equate to the opposite. I'm not sure that in itself that would be sufficient to see an explosion of women playing chess or Go, as I suspect it is one of a large number of factors that influence their general lack of participation, but in itself it would be nice to see such behaviour gone.

shapenaji wrote:

topazg wrote:I always wonder though, does it matter? Unless there are women really wanting to play but not playing because they were treated so poorly for example, I don't get the issue...

I like to think of a game of go as a conversation. Some of my greatest experiences of the game were playing with people who did not speak English (You know, Brits and the like).

How interesting is a conversation when we limit our partners to those who share our experience?

I always claim to be bilingual: English and American.

The macho/peacocking bs in go/chess is a turnoff for all new players, not just women. That sort of behavior is directed at all weaker players, not just women. I have certainly seen some new male players become discouraged because of excessive chest-thumping and snideness on the part of their peer teachers.

That said, I would guess that the lack of female players has more to do with the tastes of the female population and competing alternatives than it does with the behavior of male players.

EdLee wrote:

Inkwolf wrote:I my opinion, women (in general) are raised with a guilt ethic about 'wasting' time on things that have no practical purpose. That's why women tend to go more for craft-type hobbies, where you have something physical to show for your time.

Women are also very socially motivated,

Hi Inkwolf, combining these two aspects reminds me of a knitting club at a coffee shop.
About 6 or 7 ladies were having a good time happily knitting and chatting.

Another factor: co-operation (sharing/gathering) v. competition (beating your opponent).

In your experience, Inkwolf, have you found that women in general are turned off by the competitive, anti-social nature of chess and Go,
where two people (guys, usually) stare at the board
for 1, 2, or even 3 or more hours in complete silence ?

Which reminds me of book clubs: lots of sharing, quite social.

Yeah, more social would definitely be more attractive. Thinking games like Go and chess aren't the sort of thing you can casually chat while doing well!

I don't think I've been around any serious matches, and do not have enough experience to say whether that is a turnoff for women (more than for anybody, anyhow!) but, yeah, I don't think that would be appealing to the average female. Guys can sit and drink beer and watch TV together without talking for hours. Most women aren't like that. Social interaction is a major factor.

And while there are lots of very competitive women, I think there is really more of an instinct there to find a way to compromise and get along than to demolish your opponent. Or maybe that's just me.

Another problem is modesty. There are several women who I showed how to play, and many of them more or less said, "Well, I'm not smart enough for this" after a short time and quit. It seems like guys do not like to ever admit they aren't smart enough for something, so they will stick it out longer just out of pride and stubbornness. And some of them stick long enough to start figuring things out.

No. In Go, I played around 200 tourney games, of which I can only recollect 3 games against women.

Where on earth do you live to have never played chess with a woman?
Come on... is this 1800

Araban never even mentioned if he's played chess at all. If I hadn't played chess competitively as a child I would also have never played a female in it, since I only play chess nowadays on the rare occasion that one of my chess playing friends wants to play me at it.

Not many women on this thread making generalities about why more women don't play Go.. come on ladies - admit it - it's because Go boards aren't pink and fluffy, right?

p.s. my sister learnt Go, got to sdk and quit because she moved somewhere where there wasn't an active Go club. In her case clearly the social side of it was important.

CnP wrote:Not many women on this thread making generalities about why more women don't play Go.. come on ladies - admit it - it's because Go boards aren't pink and fluffy, right?

I know it was a joke, but this guy did design a go board to appeal to more women as well by being colorful.

https://readyfor.jp/projects/goark

Does anyone know how many professional shogi players there are and how many are female?

teancoffee wrote:Does anyone know how many professional shogi players there are and how many are female?

Hi teancoffee, some info here: Shogi.