[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X c | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X e . O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm bad with counting the values (never learnt it properly ^^), so here are just my estimates from biggest to smallest:
A - huge follow-ups. D is Sente for White. C is bigger for Black because of the Sente follow-up (and rescuing two stones). B is bigger for White because of the Sente follow-up.
I don't know what E is. Did you mean the clamp for Black? Then I would guess it's second biggest after A.
If it's Black's turn, I'd like to play like this:
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 5 6 O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 4 . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 5 6 O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 4 . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:27 am
by Knotwilg
I could write paragraphs on how awesome it is for you to be there and follow this program. Let me jump into the endgame problem for now.
a - 13- gote b - 8+ gote c - 14+ gote d - 3 sente for White e - 10- gote
the plus and minus signs account for all the endgame kos that are involved in the follow-ups. Moves a and e also have some thickness value for the groups involved while c is a pure endgame move.
If this were purely about endgame, I would pick d or c for Black, which gives a 24-24 score. But with the extra thickness I'd go for a, especially because I think White is behind and may want to invade the left side before actually going into the endgame.
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:59 am
by Uberdude
e isn't the best local move is it?
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:25 am
by RBerenguel
Uberdude wrote:e isn't the best local move is it?
I've always thought the clamp was best, and recently learnt the attachment below the keima (at what would be F2) which can sometimes work better
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:40 am
by Uberdude
RBerenguel wrote:
Uberdude wrote:e isn't the best local move is it?
I've always thought the clamp was best, and recently learnt the attachment below the keima (at what would be F2) which can sometimes work better
I meant for white: for black of course e is rubbish and clamp is the move (or attach if it works like you said, not here). At the other places the label is on one or both players move in that area, e is neither's. In terms of edge yose e is inferior to e3, though it could gain a bit in the centre around f4 but if white tries to make those points black will likely gain more on the left side so it's harder to factor that into the size calculation. Similarly b has centre points effect too.
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:04 am
by Uberdude
work in progress...
c: 14 and 2/3 double gote (assuminh white can't block and ko). d: e: ar e3 is 12 double gote (assuming white can't block and ko)
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:08 am
by andreyl
Your journal is very interesting,please keep updating it
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:50 am
by Hushfield
Today we went to another school. The kids there are stronger than in the school we first went to. I played a 3-stone game against a boy that played incredibly fast. No matter how complicated the position, he never took longer than a few seconds to put down a stone. Most of his moves were excellent, some were not, but I got sucked into the blitz-speed and played very poorly.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]HA[3]KM[0.50] PW[Hu Jian Zi]PB[Hushfield]AB[pd][dp][pp]C[This was a game played against one of the kids at the other school Yan Laoshi teaches at. He played really, really fast (never took more than a few seconds for any move), and even though I knew not to get sucked into the blitz pace, I played much too fast and made very obvious mistakes.
Afterwards, Yan Laoshi commented I will keep getting worse if I don't stop making obvious mistakes. Also, many of my moves are too slow.] ;W[cn] ;B[fp] ;W[dc] ;B[de] ;W[ce] ;B[cf] ;W[cd] ;B[dg] ;W[ch]LB[fc:A][ed:B][ef:C]C[Joseki should be at A or B, or even C before B. ] (;B[bf]C[Splitting directly is not good.] ;W[dh] ;B[ec] ;W[eb] ;B[dd] ;W[fc] ;B[cc] ;W[ed] ;B[bc]LB[cb:A]C[A very, very bad move. This makes sure black is not entirely alive, and is the cause of some problems later on.] ;W[ee] ;B[df] ;W[cb] ;B[cl] ;W[bb] ;B[bd] ;W[en] ;B[el] ;W[gn] ;B[hp] ;W[dk] ;B[dl] ;W[gl] ;B[ek]LB[ej:A]C[Too slow, should be at A] ;W[fh] ;B[bh]C[Not necessary, black can live inside anyway.] ;W[bi] ;B[ah]LB[ai:A]C[Again, bad. Makes A sente.] ;W[in] ;B[ei] ;W[eh] ;B[ci] ;W[cj] ;B[di] ;W[ej] ;B[fi] ;W[fj] ;B[gi] ;W[dj] ;B[bj] ;W[bk] ;B[ai] ;W[bl]C[A mistake by white.] (;B[gj]LB[ck:A][gk:C][bm:B]C[A huge mistake. Black at A rescues the stones by creating miai at B and C.] ;W[fk] ;B[gg] ;W[bp] ;B[cq] ;W[jq] ;B[bq] ;W[gq] ;B[gp] ;W[hq] ;B[fq] ;W[ip] ;B[pj] ;W[nq] ;B[qn] ;W[nc] ;B[lc] ;W[qf] ;B[nd] ;W[qc] ;B[oc] ;W[qd] ;B[qh] ;W[mc] ;B[md] ;W[ob] ;B[lb]C[Mistake. This is the second time I've played this when something better was available. Whenever I want top try and play this forcing move from now on, I should think long to see if there isn't a better alternative.] ;W[pc] ;B[od] ;W[mb] ;B[ke]LB[ma:1][nb:2]C[Not good. SHould exchange 1 for 2 first.] ;W[qq] ;B[pq] ;W[pr] ;B[or] ;W[qr] ;B[oq] ;W[ro] ;B[rn] ;W[qo] ;B[po] ;W[qp] ;B[om]LB[np:A]C[Not good, too small. A instead is better.] ;W[rg] ;B[lq] ;W[nr] ;B[np] ;W[mp] ;B[mo] ;W[no] ;B[op] ;W[lo] ;B[mn] ;W[lp] ;B[rh] ;W[jb] ;B[pf] ;W[kj] ;B[gk] ;W[fl] ;B[kl] ;W[ig] ;B[jh] ;W[ij] ;B[ji] ;W[jl] ;B[kk] ;W[jj] ;B[lj] ;W[li] ;B[mj] ;W[lg]C[At this point the game is completely lost for black. Endgame was played as an exercise in finding an keeping sente, but I resigned halfway through.]) (;B[ck] (;W[cm] ;B[gk]) (;W[gk] ;B[bm]))) (;B[dh] ;W[ci] ;B[bg]LB[ec:A][dj:B]C[Now black has miai options for attacking.]))
The second game I played was 2 stones. I tried to focus on playing as slow as I had to again, and it went much better this time. He played some very questionable moves, which was enough to get ahead enough for some blunders in reading didn't make me lose outright. I got sente at the start of the endgame, retained it for the most part, and won by 5,5 points.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]HA[2]KM[0.50] PW[Ruo Shi]PB[Hushfield]AB[pd][dp]RE[B+5.50] ;W[dd] ;B[pq] ;W[cn] ;B[fp] ;W[po] ;B[qo] ;W[qn] ;B[qp] ;W[pm] ;B[nq] ;W[qi] ;B[qg] ;W[oi] ;B[fc] ;W[ic] ;B[cc] ;W[dc] ;B[cd] ;W[de] ;B[db] ;W[eb] ;B[cb] ;W[ec] ;B[cf] ;W[bp] ;B[cq] ;W[ck] ;B[jq]LB[mm:E][no:D][hq:A][iq:C][lq:B]C[This is not good. This is a half-way move that leaves aji at both A and B. Better to play at C to remove the aji at A, then play D to complete the framework, or after white plays B.
Overall, black retains his two stone advantage up to this point.] ;W[ch] ;B[cg] ;W[dh] ;B[kc]C[This is not good. After the white 3-3 invasion, black is overconcentrated and doesn't have much left. Yan Laoshi said it's like having a watermelon that has been eaten by wurms from the inside.] ;W[qc] ;B[pc] ;W[qd] ;B[qe] ;W[re] ;B[qf] ;W[pb] ;B[ob] ;W[qb] ;B[nc] ;W[hq] ;B[hp] ;W[ip] ;B[iq] ;W[gp] ;B[ho] ;W[go];B[gq] ;W[hr] ;B[gr] ;W[fq] ;B[fr]LB[gn:A]C[While this works, the hane at A is a more effective way of achieving the same goal. Also, it prevents white A] ;W[eq] ;B[ep] ;W[er] ;B[ir] ;W[bq] ;B[cr]LB[br:A]C[This is bad, holding back. Another slow move, should be at A instead.] ;W[no] ;B[je] ;W[ie] ;B[if]LB[jf:A]C[This is ok. A would also be fine.] ;W[jd] ;B[kd] ;W[jf] ;B[ke] ;W[jg] ;B[he] ;W[id] (;B[hd]C[This is not good, because it leaves behind the aji of the cut at A. Should instead push at B first (it's sente). See var] ;W[hf] ;B[ig] ;W[hc] ;B[fe] ;W[gf] ;B[ff] ;W[df] ;B[dg] ;W[eg] ;B[ef] ;W[fg] ;B[gg] ;W[hg] ;B[gh] ;W[fi] ;B[ih] ;W[hh] ;B[gi] ;W[hi] ;B[gj] ;W[ji] ;B[fb] ;W[gd] ;B[fd] ;W[ea] ;B[fa] ;W[da] ;B[ce]TR[da][ea][eb][dc][ec][dd][de][df]C[The marked stones ended up being captured]) (;B[ig] ;W[jh] ;B[gc]))
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:53 am
by Hushfield
Sorry for the double post, the endgame solutions weren't displaying correctly in the other post. Below you can find the answers for the endgame problems:
General rules for calculating:
Everything here is done by Chinese scoring (I plan to do a little write-up on that later, it's pretty handy for counting games played on an actual board, as you only need to count one side). If you follow different rules for calculating endgame, that might be just as fine, this is just the way Yan Laoshi taught us.
To calculate the value of an endgame move, you need to take into account both the way the board looks after the initial move, as well as with the plausible followups, but only those that are sente. Than you take a look at the end result if white gets the move, count the score for black and white. Afterwards you do the same if black gets the move. Compare the values for both positions, and add the difference in black's scores to the difference in white's scores.
Area A
If white gets the move: White 13 territory; Black: 3 territory
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O ? ? ? ? . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | X X ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O ? ? ? ? . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | X X ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |[/go]
If black gets the move, something "special" happens. Because the black move is already gote, and capturing the white stone is another gote move, you have to divide its value by half. Because you may get it, but your opponent might play there first.
White: 2 territory; Black: 9 territory and 2 points for captured stone
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | ? ? X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | ? X P X O O O . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | ? ? X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | ? X P X O O O . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |[/go]
OR
9 for white; 7 for black
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | ? X O O ? ? ? . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | ? X O O ? ? ? . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | ? ? X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |[/go]
White difference 7, black difference 4, so a combined total of 11, which should be divided by two because the followup is gote (see above): hence 5,5 points
So in total: you compare the values of the white first variation, and the black first variation where white blocks (4 difference for white, and 4 for black, so a total of 8 points) and add the 5,5 for the possibility of the black play there later. The value of the move is therefore 13,5 points in gote (for both white and black)
Area B
If white gets the move: White: 6 territory + 2 points for captured stone; Black 5 territory
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? O O O . ? ? . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . ? ? O Z O X X ? ? . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . ? O . O X X . X ? . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $
[go]$$ $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . ? ? O X X ? X ? . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . ? ? O O X ? ? ? . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? O X X ? ? ? . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White difference: 1 point, Black difference 2 points. Total of 3 points in sente for white, 3 points in reverse sente for black.
Area E
Uberdude: you're right about move e, I just didn't want to give away the correct move there, as it's the only one that isn't completely obvious. Well, it is, if you know the shape, but might not be the first time you see it.
If white gets the move: White: 7 territory; Black: 2 territory;
$$ $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? ? . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | ? X O O ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$ $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | ? X X O O ? ? ? . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | ? X O O ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black gets the move: White: 0 territory; Black:5 territory and 2 points for captured stone.
$$ $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | ? ? X P X O O O . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$ $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | ? ? X P X O O O . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | ? ? ? X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White difference 7 points, Black difference 5 points. Total of 12 points in gote for white, 12 points in gote for black.
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:13 am
by Uberdude
For d in terms of edge yose it is better (by 2 points and awful aji for white afterwards) for black to descend rather than hane and retain the option of wedging into the kosumi afterwards. However, black loses a little in the n4 area this way, possibly 2 points, possibly zero as in yose terms white n5 is possible so it's complicated to say which is better.
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:19 am
by Knotwilg
Indeed I missed 2 points in E.
I think the program looks very good: - you get to study L&D, for real, not as a lip service, and for days, not just the first day after you made the vow - you get to study the endgame, of which the abstination is another reason for weak players staying weak - you play a lot of games and every game is reviewed by a pro !!! - and that pro focuses on the things that make a difference, not on fancy ideas
In the unforgiving eyes of professionals, we 15 kyus and 2 dans approximately make the same mistakes: - our moves are not severe; we are often happy with making a move that looks okayish proish - we lose our focus, stamina and discipline and make outright blunders
The root of this is obviously our poor reading ability and our sloth in improving on it. We probably think a lot *about* the game. We should think more during the game.
Enjoy, Hushfield!
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:49 pm
by Bill Spight
Quick note:
The answer for endgame C is a mistake.
$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . y | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X z | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O v O u . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 4 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 7 | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X e . O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . O . O X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . y | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X z | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O v O u . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 4 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 7 | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X e . O . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
tenuki.
After White does not make a solid connection, but descends at 8. Later "z" is a Black sente.
----
Also, Uberdude is right that in region "d" the move for Black is the descent.
----
Edit: Oops! I see that if Black plays first at "z", White has to answer at "v". OTOH, either player is likely to play at "v" first, anyway. An alternative to is "u", which avoids that question.
Re: Studying Go in China
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:02 pm
by Hushfield
Knotwilg: I think you're spot on about the program. There are two other dan-level students here at the moment, and they constantly get told to do more problems. Like, literally every game review. The last thing I heard translated from Yan Laoshi was even: "Like this, it doesn't matter how many games you play. You should improve your reading first. Do more problems."
Uberdude: I did exercise D first, and may indeed have fumbled it a bit. Writing the whole post took me over 2 hours, and it served as a great review of the calculating lesson. I'll check again with Yan Laoshi on what the best moves for both sides are. The value is 3 points though, of that I'm sure.
Bill: an important thing I should have mentioned the board is not "one whole board", but just the 5 local positions. There is no relation between c and the position above that. I see now I should have stated that clearly before.
tenuki. 
White does not make a solid connection, but descends at 8. Later "z" is a Black sente.
is "u", which avoids that question.