Re: Shina Kaya vs Agathis (Color, Sound & Durability)
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:04 pm
Wow, there are a lot of questions here! Someone sent me an email asking for clarification, so I'll try my best to answer. This will probably take a while. Here goes...
Someone (maybe you?) asked a question related to this the other day on this page: http://shop.gogameguru.com/agathis-go-board-24/
The short answer is that any wooden board can be damaged if someone slams a stone down hard enough, but you really have to try. It's not something that normally happens, even when fighting spirit meets fighting spirit head on
It might sound a little paradoxical at first, but softer woods (e.g. shin kaya and especially kaya) can deal with that kind of abuse a bit better. That's because harder wood (e.g. agathis), once dinted, will hold a dint 'better'. Softer woods have a tendency to gradually return to their previous form. Anyway, you'll probably want to choose a board based on other factors.
Another rule of thumb is that the softer woods produce what most people regard to be a more pleasant sound and feel nicer to play on, but that's a subjective quality that really depends on personal preference. Any board is ok, as long as you like it.
Great idea, thanks! We should make some videos of all the boards when we have time.
Funny that you should mention Amazon here. In the thumbnail (featured image) for each product, we had to crop the backgrounds out. That's because, if you want to sell your products on a third party marketplace like Amazon, you have to make the background pure white to be allowed to list your products.
On Amazon, they only require the main image to have a white background (which is what we've done). If you look at other images for any product, you'll always be able to see the photo with the exact same dimensions and perspective, without the background cropped out. Some other marketplaces require this for every image, but we haven't worked up the enthusiasm to waste our time on that yet... Anyway, you'll notice that other vendors that sell on those marketplaces do exactly the same thing.
The pictures on Amazon are wrong. To list on Amazon, you have to tame a ridiculously big spreadsheet (I think it had more than 100 columns) and it takes many weekends to finish. If you or another vendor make one small mistake (as we did in this case) the images for one product can end up on the page for another product. Even if you then delete them, Amazon sometimes decides to keep them (because they know best or something). It's very hard to get Amazon to remove images sometimes, but I'll try to get those deleted.
Another thing while we're talking about Amazon. They have this thing called the General Pricing Rule (bottom of this page) which has been the subject of some controversy. It basically says that if you sell a product on Amazon you can't sell it for less anywhere else. Since Amazon has very high fees (it generally works out to more than 20% of the price once you add everything in), small businesses selling on Amazon either have to increase all their prices by 20% or ignore the rule and risk being smacked down by Amazon. The irony is that there's a perception that things are cheaper on Amazon, but in reality it's just that most people are too scared to undercut Amazon, even though they could, so everything ends up being priced the same.
I often see people on Go forums recommending products listed on third party marketplaces when the vendor also has their own website. Some people even spend a week emailing us with questions and then end up buying from the marketplace even though they know about our website. The effect of this is that the merchant makes almost no money on the sale (maybe just a few dollars in many cases). So, I don't care whether you buy from us or another vendor in the Go community (though we'd definitely appreciate your business!), but please try to support Go vendors directly instead of buying (or directing people to buy) from a third party site. More money will be able to flow back into the Go community this way, instead of into the coffers of mega corporations in some remote tax haven.
The wood used to make all our shin kaya boards is Alaskan Spruce (we don't sell any Tibetan Spruce boards because we haven't liked the quality whenever we got samples). Although, technically (as far as I've been able to find out), not all 'Alaskan Spruce' is specifically from Alaska. Some of it can come from the western part of Canada or the US Northwest (near Seattle), but it's the same type of wood. As with most commodities today - even food - it's all mixed together in the international trade system if it's regarded to be similar enough.
Thanks for the insight, I'll update the product descriptions to be more helpful and clearer with respect to wood.
Yes this one is also Alaskan Spruce, but only on the external panels. As bogiesan already explained (thanks bogiesan), the core is a compressed composite and that's why this board can sell for 50% of the price of this single piece board. Because of this construction method, they can use a smaller amount of the highest grade (Alaskan) shin kaya to make the board. The criteria for 'higher grade' is lighter colored wood and fewer defects. You don't get a single piece of shin kaya, but you get a very nice looking, affordable alternative. Based on feedback from customers, we decided to start stocking these three alternatives for shin kaya boards in this size, so that people have more a choice and more flexibility within a budget. I know that many people will still prefer the single piece board though.
There's only one manufacturer who knows how to make these new boards and, because of how good they look for the price, they're very proud of them. They're keeping the exact technique for making them a secret so that their competitors can't start making them (we did ask about it). As with everything else we sell, we had these boards tested to make sure they met all safety standards for children's toys before stocking them (before you ask, with the test we were being cautious about the binding agents that must be used in the core).
Regarding care, the point is that this board is stable enough that it requires no thought from the owner about how to look after it and will last for a very long time. At most, you might have to dust it before playing a game. For other boards, it depends a bit on the type and size of the wood, but it's a good idea in general not to store a Go board of any value near a heater in the winter. Also, with floor boards especially, it can be good to place a small container of water underneath the center of the board when you're not using it. It also depends on whether you live in a climate with a lot of variability though.
I haven't answered your question yet, because I was writing answers for you here first. That reply was left by one of our customers. We're trialing a new feature where you can ask questions and people who've bought that product have the opportunity to give you their unbiased perspective (instead of us just saying what we think all the time). The person who answered you was someone who's actually bought and owns the board. It's supposed to make things a bit more transparent. Is it too confusing?
ThePolo wrote:Hello,
Lastly, I was wondering if shin-kaya really gets squished by smacking down stones to hard, because i love to put them down with a little force
Someone (maybe you?) asked a question related to this the other day on this page: http://shop.gogameguru.com/agathis-go-board-24/
The short answer is that any wooden board can be damaged if someone slams a stone down hard enough, but you really have to try. It's not something that normally happens, even when fighting spirit meets fighting spirit head on
It might sound a little paradoxical at first, but softer woods (e.g. shin kaya and especially kaya) can deal with that kind of abuse a bit better. That's because harder wood (e.g. agathis), once dinted, will hold a dint 'better'. Softer woods have a tendency to gradually return to their previous form. Anyway, you'll probably want to choose a board based on other factors.
Another rule of thumb is that the softer woods produce what most people regard to be a more pleasant sound and feel nicer to play on, but that's a subjective quality that really depends on personal preference. Any board is ok, as long as you like it.
TheCatLver wrote:You won't get a sound sample of stone on board except from games on youtube. so check that out.
Great idea, thanks! We should make some videos of all the boards when we have time.
Hushfield wrote:Is anyone else bothered by the 3d renders of the go boards as the main image reference material on the GGG website? That's roughly equivalent to amazon putting drawings of book covers in the preview window instead of the actual cover.
Funny that you should mention Amazon here. In the thumbnail (featured image) for each product, we had to crop the backgrounds out. That's because, if you want to sell your products on a third party marketplace like Amazon, you have to make the background pure white to be allowed to list your products.
On Amazon, they only require the main image to have a white background (which is what we've done). If you look at other images for any product, you'll always be able to see the photo with the exact same dimensions and perspective, without the background cropped out. Some other marketplaces require this for every image, but we haven't worked up the enthusiasm to waste our time on that yet... Anyway, you'll notice that other vendors that sell on those marketplaces do exactly the same thing.
Manchu wrote:Are GGG's pictures 3D renders?
Also, I am confused about the 2.4" "single piece" Shin-Kaya board GGG is selling on Amazon for 239 USD (before S&H). It is described as being "made from a single piece of uncut wood" but then there is this picture:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61la1jAnrAL._SL1500_.jpg
The pictures on Amazon are wrong. To list on Amazon, you have to tame a ridiculously big spreadsheet (I think it had more than 100 columns) and it takes many weekends to finish. If you or another vendor make one small mistake (as we did in this case) the images for one product can end up on the page for another product. Even if you then delete them, Amazon sometimes decides to keep them (because they know best or something). It's very hard to get Amazon to remove images sometimes, but I'll try to get those deleted.
Another thing while we're talking about Amazon. They have this thing called the General Pricing Rule (bottom of this page) which has been the subject of some controversy. It basically says that if you sell a product on Amazon you can't sell it for less anywhere else. Since Amazon has very high fees (it generally works out to more than 20% of the price once you add everything in), small businesses selling on Amazon either have to increase all their prices by 20% or ignore the rule and risk being smacked down by Amazon. The irony is that there's a perception that things are cheaper on Amazon, but in reality it's just that most people are too scared to undercut Amazon, even though they could, so everything ends up being priced the same.
I often see people on Go forums recommending products listed on third party marketplaces when the vendor also has their own website. Some people even spend a week emailing us with questions and then end up buying from the marketplace even though they know about our website. The effect of this is that the merchant makes almost no money on the sale (maybe just a few dollars in many cases). So, I don't care whether you buy from us or another vendor in the Go community (though we'd definitely appreciate your business!), but please try to support Go vendors directly instead of buying (or directing people to buy) from a third party site. More money will be able to flow back into the Go community this way, instead of into the coffers of mega corporations in some remote tax haven.
Manchu wrote:I note GGG does not mention anything about the wood regarding this board, despite emphasizing that "Alaskan spruce" is superior to "Tibetan spruce" in the pitch for their 2.4" Shin-Kaya. ThePolo, you may want to send GGG a message asking about this before you decide to buy. Please post the answer here.ThePolo wrote:http://shop.gogameguru.com/shin-kaya-go-board-12-c/
The wood used to make all our shin kaya boards is Alaskan Spruce (we don't sell any Tibetan Spruce boards because we haven't liked the quality whenever we got samples). Although, technically (as far as I've been able to find out), not all 'Alaskan Spruce' is specifically from Alaska. Some of it can come from the western part of Canada or the US Northwest (near Seattle), but it's the same type of wood. As with most commodities today - even food - it's all mixed together in the international trade system if it's regarded to be similar enough.
Thanks for the insight, I'll update the product descriptions to be more helpful and clearer with respect to wood.
Manchu wrote:This one is also made of several pieces of spruce and still makes no claims about being "Alaskan spruce." I would be interested to hear details about its "unique core" and what is meant by "special care" (as opposed to, say, ordinary care).ThePolo wrote:however: a new board poped up in their shop today: http://shop.gogameguru.com/shin-kaya-go-board-24-p/
Yes this one is also Alaskan Spruce, but only on the external panels. As bogiesan already explained (thanks bogiesan), the core is a compressed composite and that's why this board can sell for 50% of the price of this single piece board. Because of this construction method, they can use a smaller amount of the highest grade (Alaskan) shin kaya to make the board. The criteria for 'higher grade' is lighter colored wood and fewer defects. You don't get a single piece of shin kaya, but you get a very nice looking, affordable alternative. Based on feedback from customers, we decided to start stocking these three alternatives for shin kaya boards in this size, so that people have more a choice and more flexibility within a budget. I know that many people will still prefer the single piece board though.
There's only one manufacturer who knows how to make these new boards and, because of how good they look for the price, they're very proud of them. They're keeping the exact technique for making them a secret so that their competitors can't start making them (we did ask about it). As with everything else we sell, we had these boards tested to make sure they met all safety standards for children's toys before stocking them (before you ask, with the test we were being cautious about the binding agents that must be used in the core).
Regarding care, the point is that this board is stable enough that it requires no thought from the owner about how to look after it and will last for a very long time. At most, you might have to dust it before playing a game. For other boards, it depends a bit on the type and size of the wood, but it's a good idea in general not to store a Go board of any value near a heater in the winter. Also, with floor boards especially, it can be good to place a small container of water underneath the center of the board when you're not using it. It also depends on whether you live in a climate with a lot of variability though.
That's right, it took us many weekends to finish all of them... I only recently added all the updated photos to the store and there are still more products to do latersalerno wrote:I work with Photoshop quite often, and those look like normal pictures with very nice postproduction, so you can be sure you get what you see.
Manchu wrote:I asked about the picture on Amazon clearly showing multi-piece construction for a board marketed as one solid piece. Here is GGG's response:The Board I got delivered was one piece I think the picture uploaded on amazon was wrong, the pictures on gogameguru.com are correct
I haven't answered your question yet, because I was writing answers for you here first. That reply was left by one of our customers. We're trialing a new feature where you can ask questions and people who've bought that product have the opportunity to give you their unbiased perspective (instead of us just saying what we think all the time). The person who answered you was someone who's actually bought and owns the board. It's supposed to make things a bit more transparent. Is it too confusing?
. Competition laws in Australia are reasonably strong, Amazon only has a Kindle store in Australia (though I imagine that's for other reasons unrelated to competition laws).