Life In 19x19

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I forget which pro it was, and I forget the exact quote, but the gist of it was that in his 80's he felt that he was beginning to understand the game.

That would make him an advanced beginner.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I forget which pro it was, and I forget the exact quote, but the gist of it was that in his 80's he felt that he was beginning to understand the game.

In my opinion, people are too modest/self-depreciating of their own skill at this game. The amount of "Everyone sucks at this game and we all don't know anything" type comments is really annoying to me.

Agree Abyssinica. I think it's partly a Japanese culture thing (and as the West learnt from Japan some here seem to have adopted it too).

I think it makes perfect sense. Most people can find quite a few mistakes in their own games and there are a lot more to be pointed out be other/better players.

Time setting is a matter, but if you do math problems for an hour and mess up 7 times you are not gonna say: "Man, I did so well at math today".

That one makes mistakes does not mean one is a beginner. To take your Maths example: Andrew Wiles made a mistake in his initial proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. He is not a beginner at Maths.

That's different, since he can always redo it, until it is complete/perfect, but a go game happens only once.

Beginner is such a vague term, it can have a lot of different meanings depending on which criteria you choose to define it. I guess when people use it on themselves they try to indicate that they still are quite a bit worse than how they would like to be.

I can keep playing go until I am perfect too...

Or Roger Federer is a tennis beginner because he made an unforced error in the Wimbledon final? (If you want a non repeatable game situation).

EdLee wrote:

oren wrote:

In Japanese, shodan (1 dan) can be thought of as 'beginning level'.

I don't think I've seen anyone think this before.

That is the literal meaning of shodan:
sho = 初 = beginning/starting.
dan = 段 = level/stage/phase/degree.

Beginners are 初心者
After 初心者 are　級位者
After 級位者 is 有段者　and　高段者

You can take the literal translation of the characters but that is not how it is used in Japanese Go.

Uberdude wrote:I can keep playing go until I am perfect too...

Or Roger Federer is a tennis beginner because he made an unforced error in the Wimbledon final? (If you want a non repeatable game situation).

World chess champ Kramnik missed a mate in one once, with 30 minutes still on the clock. Most chess players would not make a mistake like that unless they were totally drunk.

And professionals have played self-atari of large groups.

Abyssinica wrote:And professionals have played self-atari of large groups.

There you go, that sounds like a perfect reason why they are not satisfied with their skill-level.

oren wrote:

EdLee wrote:In Japanese, shodan (1 dan) can be thought of as 'beginning level'.

I don't think I've seen anyone think this before.

That's a matter of the context in which "beginner" is meant. Similar to a BA (or BS) being a "beginning" degree for a career in academia.

But here are my thoughts on the initial question. First of all, I don't think particular strength levels can/should be associated with "beginner". Rather, and amount of time/number of games from one's first games. That's because there are a few of us who perhaps read the rules in a book, walked through a number of games in books, perhaps a book of the proverbs with examples of their application, and so might have begun playing their first actual games at around 10 kyu.

At the same time, there are some of us who though we have played many games, never seem to get very good But there might be a difference between not knowing some fundamental and making mistakes in its application. I suggest that we consider what would be that package of fundamentals that we would consider a person would have had to come to understand (that the fundamental existed) even though they might still be making mistakes of application.

Here's the start of a list (I am not going to try to be complete; we all should add things. Or argue for the removal of something). What has to be learned to advance beyond "beginner"?

1) Knowing the fundamental live and dead shapes.
2) Understanding ladders.
3) The importance of getting out.
4) Seki.

Mike Novack wrote:That's a matter of the context in which "beginner" is meant.
Similar to a BA (or BS) being a "beginning" degree for a career in academia.

Yes.

Mike Novack wrote:What has to be learned to advance beyond "beginner"?

1) Knowing the fundamental live and dead shapes.
2) Understanding ladders.
3) The importance of getting out.
4) Seki.

Hi Mike,

One interesting property shared by all four of the above is
that the understanding of each is a continuum.

Beginner isn't a useful word to use here, mainly because of the strong connotations it carries in English around "recently started playing" and similar. Novice is more useful but as Uberdude points out it'll rankle some people because again there are quite a few negative connotations. There's no good fix here really, in sports in my country people aspire to be a junior hurler or to play intermediate for their country, these are near elite levels of competition in the more competitive teams, whereas there's no such aspiration to be on the junior soccer team, unless you're 10.

That said, the argument does boil down to trying to find a nice way of saying, "you're not that good yet." Comparing to some arbitrary level of strength for that which is considered good. The 2k is king of the small city club but a minnow in the capital or whatever.