Life In 19x19

HermanHiddema wrote:I'm not saying that 9x9 does away with all subtleties that are beyond the beginner's horizon, just some of them. On 9x9 you don't need to consider how far to extend from a wall, you don't have to consider whether to invade or reduce moyos, you don't have to make several joseki work together. That means you can focus primarily on those skills that are the most relevant to a beginner: Can I capture this stone? Can I kill this group? Can I connect? Can I cut? How do I seal off my territory at the end?

Certainly I agree with most of this, but I still feel that "On 9x9 you don't need to consider how far to extend from a wall, you don't have to consider whether to invade or reduce moyos, you don't have to make several joseki work together" misses the point a bit.

You don't need to consider any of these things on a 19x19 board when playing a beginner, and neither do they. You can still have a fun and instructional game.

RBerenguel wrote:I'd like to point somewhere that 9x9 go is almost a different game wrt 19x19, and should not be taken lightly. It's hard, bloody and real fun on its own.

Actually if we are talking about beginners its pretty much the same game, no-one ever tenukis, no-one knows how to use influence and most fights are gonna be over before they would use up the whole board.

Marcus wrote:

Shenoute wrote:When I've spent 1 hour (or more) on a 19*19 game with a beginner that doesn't see ataris/shichos/eyes/etc I'm not really in the mood for commenting the game.

Why did you spend an hour on the game? (...)

Simply because when a beginner disregards my advice that we may start by playing a few 9*9 atari-go games and then shift to 9*9 go games, I'm pretty sure he'll feel insulted if I suggest we should stop the game in the middle. Usually when a beginner does not want to play on small boards it's because he wants to play "real go". So why should he want to stop the game in the middle ?

I precise that things I wrote here are just my point of view but that this point of view is backed up by years of teaching the game in clubs and events. The "I want to play real go" attitude is something I hear(d) quite a lot and it usually comes with little regard for anything the stronger player could say.

Marcus wrote:Encourage the student to tell you during the game "I don't know what to do here", and then discuss the position. Help them sort out their thinking during the game, and be fluid about backing up or re-arranging the pieces for a better understanding. Ask questions during the game about "why did you decide on this move?" and discuss it. Teaching a beginner should be more than comments at the end of a game. I can't always remember what I was thinking for any given move after 20 more moves, so by the end I'm sure any beginner is going to have trouble remembering any of their thoughts about specific moves.

Well, all the things you mention can be done on smaller boards And the length of a game on a small board prevents (normally) the beginner to forget what he had in mind. That said, I do sometimes stop the game and make comment during it.

Marcus wrote:

Shenoute wrote:They also can not keep track of their progress because it takes a very long time before the handicap stones can be reduced from 9 to 8 and very often most of them lose interest after a few weeks/months.

I am also of the firm belief that handicap stones are pretty much useless for teaching absolute beginners. (...)

Well, for absolute beginners maybe but I'm firmly convinced that they make for easier progress once one is not an absolute beginner anymore.


Trying to sum up in a more organized fashion :
1st stage
Goal : learn the rules
Board size : any size will do but as I usually do this through atari-go, a 19*19 board is not really needed as the games are rather short

2nd stage
Goal : being able to read a few moves ahead accuretly. It takes some time and a few games played but until this is achieved, there's little benefit in commenting on strategy
Board size : basic reading can be practiced on any board but smaller boards means that interesting situations are more numerous than in the vast, uncharted space offered by a 19*19 (even with handicap stones)

3rd stage
Goal : introduce basic strategy (separate white groups/connect yours)
Board size : I clearly prefer smaller boards. Connecting groups together on a 19*19 board is not something that beginners can "see" even with a 9 stone handicap.

But I always try to adapt to what the beginner wants or feels is right for him. What really makes the difference in the end is how much time the beginner pours into the game, regardless of the size of the board.

Edit: reading others' posts made me realize the time span we have in mind might be different. The "stages" I roughly mentioned above can be dealt with in a week or two when the beginner is quite motivated. I am really a strong advocate of moving to 19*19 as soon as possible but don't see the point until basic reading and strategical ideas are known.

paK0 wrote:

RBerenguel wrote:I'd like to point somewhere that 9x9 go is almost a different game wrt 19x19, and should not be taken lightly. It's hard, bloody and real fun on its own.

Actually if we are talking about beginners its pretty much the same game, no-one ever tenukis, no-one knows how to use influence and most fights are gonna be over before they would use up the whole board.

I wonder if that's because a beginner moved to a 19x19 board after learning it on a 9x9

topazg wrote:

paK0 wrote:

RBerenguel wrote:I'd like to point somewhere that 9x9 go is almost a different game wrt 19x19, and should not be taken lightly. It's hard, bloody and real fun on its own.

Actually if we are talking about beginners its pretty much the same game, no-one ever tenukis, no-one knows how to use influence and most fights are gonna be over before they would use up the whole board.

I wonder if that's because a beginner moved to a 19x19 board after learning it on a 9x9

Well, in 9x9 tenuki can be huge, "influence" is incredibly strong (heck, a 2 stone "wall" can be strong enough to launch an attack) and real fights can span the whole board. Also, is perfect to learn about sacrifices, endgame and of course, tactics.

Of beginners who are 'afraid' of the game, I've found about equal measures intimidated by the size of the 19x19 and the closeness of the 9x9. Some are stricken by analysis paralysis (I can go anywhere!), but lots find that liberating (I can go anywhere!). I remember one guy who found his first snapback to be a quasi-mystical experience, but I've also seen them panic when the stones start to get entangled and they realize that, yes, Go really does involve reading out ahead. It's a very rough rule of thumb, but if the beginner is a boardgamer or logical individual I'll start on 9x9, but if they're more art-y/literar-y I jump immediately/quickly to large boards and stress intuition and visual understanding more.

I stumbled into an unusual approach that works surprisingly well. We'll sometimes have a couple over interested in learning the game, but I only have one board. So we'll play rengo with the new players, my wife and I each teaming up with one of them. For the beginner it keeps them in a roughly sane board shape. They've got a stronger player with them trying to transform their moves into good moves. Sometimes my wife and I will just play out the endgame when they start to get too confused by all the stones, avoiding that issue all together for the new player. And actually, it's a lot of fun as the strong player in the pair. With absolute beginners you invariably start to spiral into unusual complexity as your partners repeatedly skip necessary moves, creating lots of opportunities for groups to go back and forth between living and dying. We don't tell our partners anything about where to play, perhaps just pointing things out in retrospect now and then.

topazg wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:I'm not saying that 9x9 does away with all subtleties that are beyond the beginner's horizon, just some of them. On 9x9 you don't need to consider how far to extend from a wall, you don't have to consider whether to invade or reduce moyos, you don't have to make several joseki work together. That means you can focus primarily on those skills that are the most relevant to a beginner: Can I capture this stone? Can I kill this group? Can I connect? Can I cut? How do I seal off my territory at the end?

Certainly I agree with most of this, but I still feel that "On 9x9 you don't need to consider how far to extend from a wall, you don't have to consider whether to invade or reduce moyos, you don't have to make several joseki work together" misses the point a bit.

You don't need to consider any of these things on a 19x19 board when playing a beginner, and neither do they. You can still have a fun and instructional game.

You can avoid considering them, but it is hard to avoid them on review. The most basic question is always "where should I have played now?", and answers like "that's beyond your current skill level" or "don't worry about it, just play wherever" are not very satisfactory to the beginner. But at the same time, actually answering such a question accurately requires you to delve into those subtleties.

If you can't satisfactorily explain a significant fraction of moves, why play that part of the game? On 9x9, the review is 99% "did you notice you could have captured this stone?", or "you should cut here, it will be hard for your opponent to live then", or "can you figure out how you could have killed/saved this corner?". Those are tangible answers, which can usually be demonstrated with a short sequence.

I don't think 19x19 should be avoided entirely, but I do think 9x9 should be preferred.

tl;dr

Two reasons why I prefer small boards for quite some time when introducing to Go:

• faster realizing what life & death means

• faster learning how to fight and survive, or to abandon and survive elsewhere

Now that I read what I wrote, it actually seems to be one and the same thing.


Greetings, Tom

Knotwilg wrote:I'm also staggered by the subliminal belief that Asians would somehow be smarter or culturally-genetically predestined to play go.

You are being too polite. This belief annoys me to no end.

In the US, our go clubs are not dojo.

And we're pretty nice to our beginners, too.

I learned on a 19x19 board, but I like small boards for teaching beginners. Games are over quickly, and usually have one or two points for teaching. Like, "If you make an eye, you will win the fight."

I also like the Capture Game for teaching absolute beginners. The game has a well defined object based upon the basic rule of go, capture. When it come time to talk about dead stones, the beginner can usually see how they could be captured. Also, as you move from Capture One to Capture Two, Capture Three, Capture Four, and Capture Five, the game becomes both progressively harder and more like regular go.

I used to worry that the Capture Game put too much emphasis on tactics, and capture in particular, leading to bad habits. But the Capture Game is more strategical than regular go. For instance,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Small Life
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . O X . . . |
$$ | O O O X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]

The White group is alive in Capture Go, even though it has only one eye, since it has two eye points. That means that it is easier to live in Capture Go, so the tactics are easier. And that means that strategy counts for more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Life
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 1 . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . |
$$ | . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]

has "a" and "b" as miai for life.

E. g.,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Life
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 7 3 9 |
$$ | . . . 6 5 4 . |
$$ | . X X X X 8 . |
$$ | . X O O X . . |
$$ | . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]

At the end of the day, the pedagogical differences between 5x5, 9x9, 19x19, capture-go vs. regular-go are all, in my view, overshadowed by the question "does the beginner want to play again?"

If you get two beginners playing each other who have no idea there's even a concept of a living group, but they're having fun, you've succeeded. If you get them spotting atari and keeping stones alive and at the end of the night they say "that's neat" and never return to Go again, that's a failure.

So really, tailor the teaching to the student. Some beginners just want to put stones on a board. Some want to see the path to mastery carefully laid ahead of them. I really don't think there's a right approach. There's right approaches for individuals. If somebody just absolutely feels that they have to play on the same big board as everybody else, the benefits of 9x9 might not be worth the antagonism of forcing them onto it. If they panic seeing a 19x19 board, there's no need to rush them. They can play 9x9 for the rest of their life if they want.

beginners <snip> having fun, you've succeeded.
them <snip> never return to Go again, that's a failure.

Not so clear cut.

To label "success" and "failure" this way is too narrow, too and , too binary.
It forces a continuum into a simplistic yes-or-no.

For many human activities, there is a bell curve.
At the far right of the spectrum are people who are very enthusiastic;
toward the other end are those who never return.
In between lies a whole gamut of people with varying degrees of interest.

For Go, the curve may be shaped such that the majority will never return.
In which case, that is not a failure at all, but simply the norm.

@Ed: True, but if they don't return specifically because of the teaching style, then that can be considered a failure.

paK0 wrote:@Ed: True, but if they don't return specifically because of the teaching style, then that can be considered a failure.

I completely agree.

Once again, we run into a continuum of teaching: from the far left (terrible teaching) to the far right (top level teaching).
With infinite varying degrees in between.

Say an excellent teacher with the best intentions introduces Go to a beginner,
and they try it, say "That's neat," and never return to Go. Hey, at least they are exposed
to this wonderful thing in their life. Then they decide it's not for them,
they dedicate their precious time on earth on other activities. But they've found out
there is this nice Go club, so maybe in the future they'll mention it to other people
who might drop by and stay. That could be considered a success, for all parties involved.



___________________

Simplify, simplify, but don't over-simplify.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

My feeling is that the attitude of the teacher is more important than the board size, though I believe starting on 9x9 is the right way to go for almost everybody. On a 19x19 I've had beginners play nobi after nobi on the second line "making territory" and that can go on for a long time. As for the people who want to play "real" go or insist on finishing the game, they may have an attitude problem themselves. These people often don't want to place a large number of handicap stones or they even insist on playing with no handicap. I never consider a game with a beginner as a real contest in which both players are trying to win. I stop and explain things close to when they happen and I deliberately make sub-optimal or poor moves to create situations where certain concepts occur. To me this is just good teaching.

In some clubs there are members who probably shouldn't be teaching beginners because they have a need to show the beginner how weak they are. They play to win and, sometimes, to humiliate the weaker player. This often results in the beginner not coming back. Club members who are recognized by the club "executives" as being good teachers of beginners might volunteer to be available one night a week or one night per month to teach beginners. If there were a schedule like this, beginners could come back for additional lessons with the same teacher. Having a beginners' night is also a good idea since beginners can play each other and get help if strange things happen. Part of having a good attitude to teaching is to recognise and give appropriate praise when a beginner does something that a strong player sees as utterly trivial but which represents an advance in understanding by the beginner.