#240 awef vs jeromie

[jeromie]

@EdLee

Yes, I wasn't using that game as my reason for the move. In fact, as you said, I used a different approach. (I wanted my move to be biased toward outside influence rather than edge/corner territory.) Since I was writing all my thought process, I just thought it fair to mention that seeing that game acted as confirmation (to me) that my idea wasn't horrible. Their game is, of course, no help whatsoever in the follow up. We've already diverged tremendously; any similarity is lost.

[Uberdude]

Professional level game so far

[awef]

Thanks for helping me with the diagram code skydyr. Fixed it.

[jeromie]

$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems to work best with my previous move. Depending on black's next move I will either descend to s6 or attach at P3, building a wall on the right side or bottom. If my wall is on the right, I expect black to extend to r3. I'll probably play on the other side and start a fight.

[EdLee]

Interesting to see some non-standard shapes -- .

At least one difference from the standard shapes is W cannot resist B (a) hane with W (b):

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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Uberdude]

Professional level game so far

Thought I might jinx it.

[jeromie]

My last move was made when I briefly had cell service while exploring the coast of Oregon, which was breathtakingly beautiful. I'm going to further explain my last two moves below, and also indicate a possible change in direction for my follow up.

First, the hane at move 8:

Board state for reference:

$$Bc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q X . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I didn't know the joseki for this move, though I think I was pretty sure I'd seen the hand at some point. Still, knowing one move in a joseki sequence is dangerous if one can't follow up properly. I considered just about every hane, one point jump, extension, diagonal move, and knight's move around the Q5 stone. Most of them I dismissed rather quickly; the Ives I lingered on the longest were the R6 hane (which I played), the Q4 extension, and the contact play / knight's move at P3.

The Q4 extension didn't look good because after black R4 it's basically like black got to play hane at the head of my stones. I have to reinforce the shape or I risk being cut at Q6, and once I spend a move to do that the Q4 stone wouldn't serve much purpose.

The knight's move at P3 left white with stow stones that would be hard to connect after black's next move. Black's extra stone (since he played in the area first) seemed to be decisive in the fighting that would follow. I couldn't find a good continuation from this move.

The hane I played works because I really want an outer wall of influence to break up black's stones on the right side. Depending upon black's choices,, I feel I'm guaranteed a wall on right side OR a strong wall to help build the bottom. See the next section to see what I mean.

Next the tiger's mouth I played for move 10:

Reference position:

$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think this move is necessary to maintain connection between my stones. It also helps to build the wall I want. I expect black to jump to O3, but if he doesn't I can play at P3 and get a great wall even if black tries to cut:

$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If black reinforces then I can start working on the right side. When I posted I said I would descend to S6. What I really want is the extension around R10, but I thought this move was necessary to protect against the clamp at S7. Now I'm not so sure, and I might make an immediate extension. Here is how things work out to the best of my reading:

$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 3 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O 6 O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 3 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O 6 O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I can connect at a and/or capture the marked stone in a ladder, leaving black with a weak group. I need to try a few more variations to make sure this works, but I think this will be better than giving up sente and letting black make the R10 extension.

On an unhidden note, it's interesting how easy it is to remember all the moves in this game (which is admittedly not very long yet) when I have a good reason for each of them. It's also fun to see what kind of variations I can read when not under time pressure! The challenge is to know when to stop thinking and just play what seems to be the best move.

[skydyr]

@jeromie

This seems to work best with my previous move. Depending on black's next move I will either descend to s6 or attach at P3, building a wall on the right side or bottom. If my wall is on the right, I expect black to extend to r3. I'll probably play on the other side and start a fight.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you provide a diagram or two?

[awef]

$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm11 awef(B) v jeromie(W) 6.5 komi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hm, I don't see this move a lot (or ever?), so I'm not sure what he's up to. He's emphasizing center influence. Perhaps he's planning a moyo? I'll keep my eyes peeled for more cues as to the strategy behind this move. My move (black 11) still seems necessary despite it no longer being part of the joseki that I'm familiar with. It keeps me from being easily contained and limits his bottom left influence. I wonder where he'll play next.

[EdLee]

Hi jeromie and awef,

First, the hane at move 8:

$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . b a . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . b a . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Jeromie, it's good you do your own analysis behind your moves.
It's also good to study the joseki (after this game).

The following is a bit more about .
It has no effect on this lower right corner in this game,
so you can read it now, or, you can also wait until after the game.
It's entirely up to you.

The hane is one joseki move (but not the only one).
It threatens the atari (a) next, which is very big.
The (a) atari is big because afterwards, W can connect at (b)
and the resulting shape is terrible for B.
So, normally, B will reply to the hane.

[EdLee]

( For beginners. )

$$
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Instead of in the real game, one joseki move is the solid connect:

$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 O a . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 O a . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

Another joseki move is the other tiger's mouth:

$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . b . |
$$ . . . . . . . O a . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . b . |
$$ . . . . . . . O a . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

For both joseki moves, if (a) hane, W can resist with (b) hane.
In contrast, in the real game fails at this.

Tenuki on is another possibility.

[EdLee]

( For beginners. )

$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . Q . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+[/go]

If clamp in Jeromie's variation above, W can simply drop to --
the result is a broken shape for B. This is good for W:

$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . Q . O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . Q . O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+[/go]

See also Toothpaste .

( For beginners. )
However, the situation has changed after the jump:

$$Bm11
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm11
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+[/go]

Later, if (a) W has not fixed his shape, and (b) B has gained strength, then:
this clamp sequence could be an attack on W's dumpling:

$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O 4 O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O 4 O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------+[/go]

So whether the clamp is good or bad depends heavily on the local and global situations.

[EdLee]

( For beginners. )

$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ , . . . 8 3 4 X . . |
$$ . . . . 5 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+[/go]

In the above variation, B is making more broken shape for himself —
wishful thinking for W:

$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . @ X . . |
$$ , . . . @ ? @ X . . |
$$ . . . . Y @ Y . . . |
$$ . . . . . @ Y . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . @ X . . |
$$ , . . . @ ? @ X . . |
$$ . . . . Y @ Y . . . |
$$ . . . . . @ Y . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------+[/go]

See also Toothpaste .

[Uberdude]

@jeromie:

You wrote a fair bit of analysis for the move you played for 10, but nothing about other moves. Did you consider anything else? A common piece of advice I give is to always consider at least 3 moves. It's often more productive to think a little about 3 moves than a lot about 1.

[jeromie]

@Uberdude:

I did think about Q4 and Q6. They seemed like dead ends, so I didn't write much. (And I'm mostly posting from devices without a real keyboard, so that was already a lot to write. ) Since I expected black to play that one point jump right away, I probably should have considered that move or something near it a little longer. Thanks for the advice; I'll try to write more about moves I dismissed in future posts.