Bill Spight wrote:I think that the worst play so far was . It not only allowed , but approached the White strength.
I'm not sure what to think of 13. On the one hand allowing white to make thickness with c5 is bad, but on the other after doing so white's k3 has ended up as an under-extension and white takes gote again so black gets a speedy development. c14 low makes the left side boring so if black did play there c6 would be too flat so perhaps a time for d5 or d6.
Yes, the fact that White already has a stone on K-03 mitigates the loss from allowing . But still approaches White strength.
Pippen wrote:So my theory is: Below a certain level the opening doesn't mean anything if it's not a freak opening with double 2-2 or something similiar. And even in the pro business I doubt that a good pro would become a bad pro if he'd open with double 3-3 from now on which I'd also consider suboptimal nowadays.
I wouldn't say the opening doesn't mean anything to a 5k (for example), but certainly the middlegame is more important and where most games are decided. However, often the problems one faces in the middlegame are sown in the poor opening (Otake makes this point in Opening Theory Made Easy). It is a common situation when I am reviewing some kyu game and he says "I thought the opening was ok for me but then it all went bad later and I don't know why" and the answer is the opening was bad and he had failed to appreciate the aji and problems in his positions.
Very often on the Big Question Mark pages on Sensei's Library ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?BigQuestionMark ) someone will ask what to do in a situation in which there is no good outcome. The real answer is not to make a previous mistake.
The opening is not all that difficult, and pros and strong amateurs (stronger than I) will make few opening errors, and small ones, at that. OTOH, at the SDK level it is not unusual to see a mistake in the opening that loses some 10 points by comparison with best play. And unlike in the case of a middle game error that loses a group, the player remains blissfully unaware of his loss.
So while spending masses of time trying to play the perfect opening is not the best way to increase your win rate (but I enjoy it) you should spend enough effort to not come out of it with a several stones handicap. Guo Juan recommends, in a 1 hour game, spending 10 minutes on opening, 30 minutes on middlegame, and 20 on endgame.
Interesting recommendation. In a 240 move game I think of the opening as lasting around 40 moves, the middle game around 120 moves, and the end game around 80 moves. Then Guo Juan's recommendation amounts to spending about the same time per move on average. My inclination is more like 20-30-10.
Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:24 am
by Pippen
Here's the situation again. I think now, that 7 should not be played as an attachment, but to cover a big point, like a. Because black stills needs to finish the lower joseki and that'd give white sente. With 7 white ends in gote.
Pippen wrote:Here's the situation again. I think now, that 7 should not be played as an attachment, but to cover a big point, like a. Because black stills needs to finish the lower joseki and that'd give white sente. With 7 white ends in gote.
Considering that White has sente now, I'd say that White is better. Like Überdude said: Tewari doesn't show anything if both players'd make a mistake through reordering moves. Tewari only works if in reorder one player plays still only good moves and the other does a weird move.
Here are two further questions, also refering to fuseki:
1) In this diagramm should black play the joseki 6-10 or pincer at a, b or c after 8 (or maybe pincer right at 6?)? I think c after 8 is not good because it harms 5 indirect, but a/b or an immediate pincer after 6? Or is it just a matter of taste?
2) The fuseki continues with 11, but is 17 a good move and even more: where to play after 18 for black (I usually play at a)? Do you like black's position?
In your original game, playing 11 at E2 is interesting in this opening, because K3 is already on the board and White doesn't have large moyo potential (the board has already been broken up diagonally).
I don't have time to make diagrams at the moment (sorry) but the idea is to make White over-concentrated at the bottom.
Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:24 am
by Pippen
gogameguru wrote:In your original game, playing 11 at E2 is interesting in this opening, because K3 is already on the board and White doesn't have large moyo potential (the board has already been broken up diagonally).
I don't have time to make diagrams at the moment (sorry) but the idea is to make White over-concentrated at the bottom.
Do you mean my move 8 at E4? I like it because I stabilize my split stone and come out with sente. Is it not the best move there?
here is an unusual move, which takes corner territory at the expense of extra pressure at A. Since White already closely extended at the bottom, the exchange may overconcentrate White.
here is an unusual move, which takes corner territory at the expense of extra pressure at A. Since White already closely extended at the bottom, the exchange may overconcentrate White.
Black still looks better overall because of above. But that's because White didn't take the last open corner, which was bigger. I added the marked exchange in the top left to make things clearer.
Anyway, there lots of other possibilities. These are just some ideas to consider.
EDIT: Fix typos
Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:04 am
by Uberdude
As I said before, playing on the side before approaching the corner gives your opponent opportunities to make your side stone misplaced. David's descent is a nice example of this. (I would have low approached there too).
Also: If white plays a and Black plays 1 then the sequence you showed then White could simply tenuki at some early point, treating the stones there lightly, couldn't he? That'd be my approach.
Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:33 am
by Uberdude
Which pincer? Probably it should be high. I didn't plan anything in particular but I would expect white to jump or press with the approach stone and then have some running fight.
After David's descent tenuki does seem plausible but you have to be mindful you didn't make any points and not much influence and you leave behind a cut. Were they good exchanges? I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here, but sometimes "tenuki and treat lightly" is a euphemism for "let's try something somewhere else because I screwed up there" (but better than "let's keep digging this hole") You can't tenuki and play lightly all game, you need to make some points eventually (and black has 3 corners currently).
. It not only allowed
, but approached the White strength.
My inclination is more like 20-30-10. 
now?
here is an unusual move, which takes corner territory at the expense of extra pressure at A. Since White already closely extended at the bottom, the exchange may overconcentrate White.
above. But that's because White didn't take the last open corner, which was bigger. I added the marked exchange in the top left to make things clearer.
(or 'a') seems better; as skydyr said.