Life In 19x19

And thanks to all the wise words here I made myself play a game on OGS yesterday (after trying to find games on the services that have native iOS apps as I just got a new iPad), a really nice 9x9 game, one of the most enjoyable I played even.

And now to the even funnier part, getting what I did wrong and why I lost by 1.5 points.

virre wrote:bad at knowing the diffrence between a false and a close eye

Hi virre, what do you mean by a "close eye" ?
Could you show an example in a diagram ?

EdLee wrote:

virre wrote:bad at knowing the diffrence between a false and a close eye

Hi virre, what do you mean by a "close eye" ?
Could you show an example in a diagram ?

I was just tired for morning, I meant an true eye. I went thorugh the SGF and commeted but could not upload it to EidoGo so something was wrong with it. I did not read the points correctly either.


This was the game at least http://online-go.com/game/1151552, I should have passed at move 44 where I lead by 29 to 28 if I counted correctly.

Virre,

There is some good advice above. I would try to remember a couple of things play to enjoy, not just to improve. And your not alone we are all on the continuum somewhere. So have fun. The fear of losing will really hinder your improvement.

I also say go to the clubs and if they are all much stronger players try GO problems set some up and in between games they can help. Be friendly to new people offer to teach them the rules. I know at least some of the appeal to our little club is that we are friendly it is a social activity.

And Lastly we are all behind you here! See ya at Shodan!

If you want a handicap game with live points/discussion, teaching from someone just a little better than u, contact me at online GO I am Nghtstalker..... Scary eh?


Pax

I can assure you that you're playing strength compared to mine is infinitely better than my play compared to any kind of pro, nothing to be ashamed about! The people I played against in the pandachamps where probably either falling asleep at the keyboard or laughing hysterically while thinking... "he played there? Oh boy..." ... Okay, maybe not, but the amount of stupid moves I played in front of those guys... so emarassing from my point of view, however I realized as a stronger player I don't go "that 20kyu played a dumb move" but "how can I help?"... when you consider the fact that it is very hard for me to find games against stronger opponents it was a godsend opportunity. I wish I could play against players 9 stones stronger every day, but you gotta make do with what you have!

As for my online rank, I don't seem to care anymore what my online rank is now, because I hold a belief that I'll get stronger anyway, so what? In fact, so what if I'm xkyu on XGS? The only reason that I think about rank is that I want to play against stronger players. I do not anymore see online ranks primarily as some kind of badge of honour, but like a class in one huge online insei league. U
If I could play against players much stronger than me all the time... rank wouldn't matter! I think I've wasted one too many years just living in my comfort zone, thank you!

At least I'm not a pro

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/44419
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/43827
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/43763


I guess I'm being a little harsh, but when I was 30kyu, I couldn't imagine being 10kyu, so was sure I'd be happy just to be able yo take 9 stones from the 10k. Fi nally reaching 20k, turns out I wasn't. Wanted to at least take 9 stones from those amazing 1-dans, and for sure I I'll be satisfied. And then? I want to take 9 stones from the pros. I want to be 1st dan, blackbelt! Well, keep in mind it is a natural although funny process, the stronger you get, the weaker you feel. You may have noticed that I seem to be talking about myself? Well, now you can see your situation in a less stressful manner, as you're not alone! Top-heavyness is a common problem in many Go clubs, but don't let that be an obstacle. Maybe taking a break for a while before returning to play many, many games could help to "restart" your Go

I havent posted on this site in a few years. The reason is simple. I take multiple year breaks from Go. As a result, I've been playing for probably 7 years and play at about 17k on a good day if I brush up my study. I say this not to discourage you, just to let you know that playing Go doesn't have to be a race.

I also play violin, and much like Go, my progress is slow.I will never be Hilary Hahn at violin. Much like I will never be Honinbo Shusaku at Go. And that's ok. I don't need to be.

It's important to remember that you have your entire life to play Go, if you want. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Everyone has their own pace. If your pace is slower than those around you, there is no problem. Really all that matters is that whatever your skill is, you are having fun. At the end of the day, it's just a game about little black and white stones.

Well I never play offline go games so I can't speak about that.
But as for online go anxiety I can hardly understand what may cause it other than rank obsession.
I've been there too. But try not to think about your rank as an achievement but rather a helping feature so that you can easily find partners for even games. If you drop by a stone or too, so what? Now you'll have better chance to actually win your games!
You may also switch off ranking at all (at least on KGS you can) that way fear for keeping your rank won't hold you back from playing.
The only time I'm anxious to play go is when I feel that I'm too sleepy / tired to play at my usual strength.
And finally, yes I've been struggling to improve my play so that I'd pass the 6k wall at last. But I want to improve my strength, not my rank. Thus it won't keep me from playing, because I know that the more I play the better chance I have to improve.
(Btw embarrassment has very little place in online play I think. They don't even see you, nor do they know who you are.)

You see yourself, though.

If you have anxiety, you're the worst one to judge your own actions. You'll always decide, with utmost certainty, that every little thing you said or did or neglected to do was badly done, evil, embarrassing in the extreme and you should just go away and never come back.

Exactly because you can't see anyone you play with, you don't have anything to go on to tell you it wasn't actually that bad. There's no reassurance of any kind.

A lot of people who play online don't even talk at all. Often because they don't know English, sometimes because they don't want to, and you never really know anything other than that this is a person playing against you. That's it.

You don't know how they feel about you, so you're left to decide for yourself if you come across as a decent player. The default case for a non-anxious person will generally be to think you're probably not too bad, otherwise people would complain. If you have anxiety, you'll never assume things are fine without any confirmation.

virre wrote:

EdLee wrote:Hi virre, have you experienced this kind of feeling in any other fields ?

Ah thats true, that is my full life more or less. Epscally the social impact part where I, in my drinking day, would get drunk to stand social interactions.

I suffer from anxiety generally as well and would have used alcohol in the past to survive social situations. I find it helps not to think of this as "Online Go Anxiety" because it's more likely to be an extension of your general anxiety and much of the advice specific to online go anxiety won't be much help to you. It's better to focus on the core anxiety and look into help with that, be it CBT or meditation techniques to help you relax.

Hi All,

Feels a little funny answering your post Virre, since this is my first ever post here, AND I'm extremely new to Go, but here goes anyway...

I'm MUCH MUCH better at chess than I am at Go, and can identify with what you're saying based on my years of chess playing.

I think 'setting the bar high' is a great thing. It drives us to study and to work hard at the board. It stops us from playing the first thing that comes into our head, or trying 'cheap shots' ("This move is great...IF my opponent doesn't see my threat!"

On the other hand, driving ourselves naturally means putting pressure on ourselves. It's this pressure (to play good Go, to look good (read to not look stupid , to play 'correctly' (like we see in books), to win, to improve our ranking, to give the opponent a good game...etc etc) that ends up bogging us down .

In a chessbook, I read the quote "Perfectionism is spelled P.A.R.A.L.Y.S.I.S..."


Obviously it's impossible for us to know exactly how you can reduce this anxiety...here are a few ideas...

- develop a 'playful mode'. Make a conscious decision about how you will play a game. "In this game I'm going to take lots of risks!" "In this game, I'm playing to learn how to kill groups/invade....etc" "This game is purely for me to learn"...

- remember that many players are quite happy to have an opponent that makes mistakes!

-after a game, pick out something you did REALLY well in that game (without worrying about the result).

-when you play a 'bad' move, realise that if you've really screwed up, then you have NO pressure left on you to win! enjoy the ride for the rest of the game (MUCH easier said than done, but a very useful mindset in competitive play in chess).

- (Going to need you Go players to say if this one could be true in Go, I don't have enough experience, but it FEELS right!) Some time back, I was drawn against a strong grandmaster in a friendly weekend chess tournament with fast time controls (60 minutes each for the game). After 30 moves the position looked about equal on the board (to me , but I only had 5 minutes left to finish the game, he had 55 left. After losing, we analysed the game together. At one point he told me "In calm positions like this, except for really obvious loves like recaptures, there is NO ONE REALLY BEST MOVE. You are working too hard at the wrong type of thinking. Try this next time you play...in calm positions don't play the 'best' move you find, play the second-best....at the end of the game you will probably see no difference in your playig strength." I HAVE tried it, and now tend to agree....and it removes a lot of pressure to find THE MOVE all the time.

-If it's the quality (or perceived lack of quality) of your games that is getting to you... then here's a fantastic video about how artists can deal with criticism of their work and pressure to perform. Remarkable! http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius

I see I've gone on for ages.....please just ignore the bits that sound too strange or inappropriate.

Shako wrote:Try this next time you play...in calm positions don't play the 'best' move you find, play the second-best....at the end of the game you will probably see no difference in your playig strength.

That is really interesting. And it rings true - I have abunch of problems, but one of them is definitely over-thinking "calm" positions trying to find the best possible move.

Shako wrote:Try this next time you play...in calm positions don't play the 'best' move you find, play the second-best....at the end of the game you will probably see no difference in your playig strength.

(Quoting a chess grandmaster.)

joellercoaster wrote:That is really interesting. And it rings true - I have abunch of problems, but one of them is definitely over-thinking "calm" positions trying to find the best possible move.

First, go is generally a longer game than chess with finer gradations in results. If you play the second best move in calm positions in go, you could easily lose 1 stone in strength.

Second, one thing that Znosko-Borovsky said about chess also applies to go: "It is not a move, even the best move, that you must seek, but a realisable plan" (How Not to Play Chess). Make plans in calm positions. Then your plan will tell you where to play.

Bill Spight wrote:

Shako wrote:Try this next time you play...in calm positions don't play the 'best' move you find, play the second-best....at the end of the game you will probably see no difference in your playig strength.

(Quoting a chess grandmaster.)

joellercoaster wrote:That is really interesting. And it rings true - I have abunch of problems, but one of them is definitely over-thinking "calm" positions trying to find the best possible move.

First, go is generally a longer game than chess with finer gradations in results. If you play the second best move in calm positions in go, you could easily lose 1 stone in strength.

Second, one thing that Znosko-Borovsky said about chess also applies to go: "It is not a move, even the best move, that you must seek, but a realisable plan" (How Not to Play Chess). Make plans in calm positions. Then your plan will tell you where to play.

Thanks for your thoughts. Frankly, in my own experience, even a NON-realisable plan can make the difference. Working towards something gives a sense of coherence to moves even if your plan doen't get carried out on the board (because of pesky things like opponents .)

I feel that playing chess well often involves playing good, relevant multi-purpose moves for as long as they are productive and leaving the really commital ones until they are really needed.

I have no idea if that applies as well to Go, and would enjoy picking the two games apart to try to get a decent grip on Go, but perhaps better in another thread since I don't want to hijack this one.

Hi,
I have been through this, though moderately. I think that there are several aspects in go anxiety.

One is the huge level difference between a complete beginner and an experienced player. At the beginning, I was worried about playing dead stones. A club player once told me that the last moves of my game were unuseful. I even remembered one of my very first games, where I eneded up playing several moves at the end of the yose, while my opponent kept passing. He seemed bored. I also remember being surprised reading some commented games, where I saw that one player should resign while the chuban didn't even start.
After that, I was worried during my other games. Am I wasting my opponent's time ? Should I resign now ? Am I playing dead stones ?
The rules were also a bit confusing. It was the beginning of the adoption of the AGA rule in France. I was thus asking for pass stones, but my opponents objected that there was no such thing as a "pass stone".

I came over this feeling playing lots of fast games versus the computer. Once I could see wether a group is dead or alive, and not miss an atari anymore, I was much more confident.


Another aspect is the oriental tradition associated with the game. It is considered as impolite to play the first move on the wrong side of the board, it is considered impolite to keep playing a lost game. Some even pretend that it is impolite to overplay.
Come on ! We're not in a zen temple ! Everyone plays according to his/her own level. A beginner can't see a lost game as soon as a professional player. Moreover, if the opponent is him/herself a beginner, going on is fully justified. A move considered as overplay by a good player can be a valid attack against a beginner player.


Last, a much more atavic aspect, rooted deep in the community, is the assumption that anyone should progress.
Why ? If a player can't devote a huge amount of time studying, but if he likes playing games from time to time against players of his own level, why should we judge that his level is "not good enough" ? Everyone has the right to enjoy playing games, and not everyone has the possibility, or vocation, to become a strong player.


Let's not forget that go is a game. I don't buy the "philosophy of life" that it is sometimes supposed to represent. It is just a fabulous, fantastic game !

Pio2001 wrote:Some even pretend that it is impolite to overplay.
Come on ! We're not in a zen temple ! Everyone plays according to his/her own level. A beginner can't see a lost game as soon as a professional player. Moreover, if the opponent is him/herself a beginner, going on is fully justified. A move considered as overplay by a good player can be a valid attack against a beginner player.

Depends on what you mean by beginner. Trying utterly unreasonable kill attempts against a 20k really doesn't appeal to me. I'd view it as reading practice for a 15k though.