Life In 19x19

Nigel Farage (leader of the anti-immigration UKIP party here in the UK) would hate me for saying this, but I can't but wonder if the best way to get into the USA is via another EU country: get a job in a European office of some big multinational (I guess there are more of these in UK/France/Germany than Bulgaria) and after a few years of showing your worth to them apply for an internal transfer to a US office.

Also what Bantari said about your skills is very important, at the moment you appear to be a dime-a-dozen web programmer. American companies can probably find plenty of home-grown people to do that, or even hire them remotely from India/Bulgaria/wherever. Your chances will be much better if you are skilled in a niche discipline, and also for a job where you add a lot of value being in the same room as the rest of the team.

Bantari wrote:Another important thing which can help you, probably the most important thing - figure out which technology is up-and-coming, what will be needed next year, and learn that! Even if you can't come here and go to school, learn it in Europe, this is your best bet. Offer something which is rare here, something which is just starting to catch on, and you are golden. Companies will rather sponsor than wait another year and hire locally. For most of the established stuff there are tons of people in the US looking for jobs, so it is hard for companies to justify hiring from oversees. But if your skills are "in demand", it is much much easier.

This. Focus on something that the market needs dramatically. I've seen entire start-ups being bought just because a bigger company desperately needed someone to work on the same technological stack. Yes, I'm talking about buying a company and throwing their product away just because you need those 5 programmers to work on a different project. That's how important differentiation is.

looking around where the world is today node.js / io.js ,but the fact that we are talking about it might well mean it is to late.

But again, a good programmer should have theoretical knowledge of the ground theory's of multiple languages (and thats where studying might well be a good thing. Knowing the difference between typed and untyped languages and the small traps that might create. Knowing both some perl and some php is a good beginning, though by that perl project I went, why not use Data::Dumper)

virre wrote:looking around where the world is today node.js / io.js ,but the fact that we are talking about it might well mean it is to late.

But again, a good programmer should have theoretical knowledge of the ground theory's of multiple languages (and thats where studying might well be a good thing. Knowing the difference between typed and untyped languages and the small traps that might create. Knowing both some perl and some php is a good beginning, though by that perl project I went, why not use Data::Dumper)

Because you have to install a separate module. That would take time & learning curve. Then you'd have to learn the way it is invoked, what parameters you need to pass it on with qw and so on. That would take forever and by the time you have done with it, you will say " screw it, I am sure that array is fine " and your project will fail.

That is, for new & green programmers having a ready made sub is much better.

I hope you addressed that statement as a question, not as a "derailing question"


P.S. Not many programmers know both PHP & Perl. Especially not as young as me.

Stefany93 wrote:P.S. Not many programmers know both PHP & Perl. Especially not as young as me.

Unfortunately age is not usually a determining factor. In fact, it can be a problem. Most, if not all, use companies will require a degree plus experience.

Stefany93 wrote:

virre wrote:looking around where the world is today node.js / io.js ,but the fact that we are talking about it might well mean it is to late.

But again, a good programmer should have theoretical knowledge of the ground theory's of multiple languages (and thats where studying might well be a good thing. Knowing the difference between typed and untyped languages and the small traps that might create. Knowing both some perl and some php is a good beginning, though by that perl project I went, why not use Data::Dumper)

Because you have to install a separate module. That would take time & learning curve. Then you'd have to learn the way it is invoked, what parameters you need to pass it on with qw and so on. That would take forever and by the time you have done with it, you will say " screw it, I am sure that array is fine " and your project will fail.

That is, for new & green programmers having a ready made sub is much better.

I hope you addressed that statement as a question, not as a "derailing question"


P.S. Not many programmers know both PHP & Perl. Especially not as young as me.

When I was your age I was a fluent programmer in C and Lisp, knew enough Forth to write some stuff for fun, wrote HTML by hand and was learning Python just for the sake of it. Knew a little Javascript to get by and could manage with CSS if not pressed. And I was studying mathematics, so most of this was just because I was interested in programming. People really interested in the subject, at that age, could easily know much more, not counting what they were taught in a degree.

10 years later, I can handle many, many languages (name a language, almost any programming language, and either I have already checked it for curiosity or it is in my list of "next to learn"), so I can fix stuff when needed in most. My "fluent core" is still C & Lisp, although now Python, Go and Javascript are part of the "inner languages" I can still use on a brim and are the backbone of any exploratory programming I do. Again, I'm no programmer. My day job now involves programming, but I still consider myself a mathematician (and these 10 years included finishing my degree, getting a masters, teaching and working on my PhD, so, programming was mostly still a side endeavour.)

RBerenguel wrote:name a language, almost any programming language, and either I have already checked it for curiosity or it is in my list of "next to learn"

Here's a couple
- Ada?
- Oberon?

On the subject (just random thoughts, most/all of them have already been stated here):
- it's probably hard to get a visa to work in USA. Go EU first (why USA, anyway?)
- Degree is good (essential) for two things:
-> employers want it, regardless of whether you learn something new or not
-> I'm fairly certain that you would learn something new, which will later prove useful (for me such things included basics of processor design, operating systems, computational theory, compiler design etc)
- Why should some company abroad (whether they are in EU or USA or wherever) hire just you? There's a lot of people who know exactly the same programming languages as you do, and then some. You need something special, e.g. expert knowledge of the next "hot" thing, whatever it is. Most likely, though, you need the degree and a stellar resume with 10+ yrs experience.

(btw, with your CV I would be looking for "web developer" rather than "programmer", but that's probably just terminology)

tj86430 wrote:

RBerenguel wrote:name a language, almost any programming language, and either I have already checked it for curiosity or it is in my list of "next to learn"

Here's a couple
- Ada?
- Oberon?

On the subject (just random thoughts, most/all of them have already been stated here):
- it's probably hard to get a visa to work in USA. Go EU first (why USA, anyway?)
- Degree is good (essential) for two things:
-> employers want it, regardless of whether you learn something new or not
-> I'm fairly certain that you would learn something new, which will later prove useful (for me such things included basics of processor design, operating systems, computational theory, compiler design etc)
- Why should some company abroad (whether they are in EU or USA or wherever) hire just you? There's a lot of people who know exactly the same programming languages as you do, and then some. You need something special, e.g. expert knowledge of the next "hot" thing, whatever it is. Most likely, though, you need the degree and a stellar resume with 10+ yrs experience.

(btw, with your CV I would be looking for "web developer" rather than "programmer", but that's probably just terminology)

Coded a little Oberon when I was, I think, 14 or 15, some graphing stuff on Windows 3.1, I think, long, long time ago. Didn't look much into it back then, neither recently. Ada didn't really seem "that interesting" given its roots. Languages by committee are not my thing, so never checked it for practical purposes.

RBerenguel wrote:10 years later, I can handle many, many languages (name a language, almost any programming language, and either I have already checked it for curiosity or it is in my list of "next to learn")

This oughta be fun. Here are 4 distinct types of language not represented in your list:

J (I know this is on your list)
Lucid/Lustre/Lucid Synchrone
Icon
Idris

And just for masochism (or so I hear, I haven't even looked at it): MUMPS.

hyperpape wrote:

RBerenguel wrote:10 years later, I can handle many, many languages (name a language, almost any programming language, and either I have already checked it for curiosity or it is in my list of "next to learn")

This oughta be fun. Here are 4 distinct types of language not represented in your list:

J (I know this is on your list)
Lucid/Lustre/Lucid Synchrone
Icon
Idris

And just for masochism (or so I hear, I haven't even looked at it): MUMPS.

J, yeah. Did a little, but I prefer, and am focusing on, APL.

Lucid: nope, haven't heard, will check

Icon: I went through the hello world, tutorial, use cases and etc. I thought it was pretty clean, but didn't really find a good use case to use it often

Idris: rings a bell, faintly. Close to Self, maybe? Have found the name before, but haven't done anything else than passed by the name

MUMPS: ah, you also read "Attack of the one-letter languages" didn't you? haven't checked, ever.

I think Jon Diamond used MUMPS, it's his username...

How about Whitespace, it was invented by a Go player

Uberdude wrote:I think Jon Diamond used MUMPS, it's his username...

How about Whitespace, it was invented by a Go player

Oh, didn't know that. And yes, I have tried Whitespace, Befunge, Brainf*ck and many other esoteric languages, but not to the levels of some programmers I know (writing interpreters in the target language!)

Ah, good old MUMPS. A former colleague of mine did write a scientific paper about it (https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/kirjasto/sarja-c-1980.html):

C-1981-40
Matti Björkbacka & Urpo Löfbacka & Päivi Rajakangas: MUMPS-järjestelmän toteuttaminen Mikko 3/36-tietokoneella. - Tekninen raportti.

Which roughly translates to "Implementing MUMPS on a Mikko 3/36 computer" (Mikko was one of the early minicomputers by Nokia, back in the good old days before the portable phone folly started. Btw, Nokia also manufactured an all-Ada computer MPS 10)

tj86430 wrote:Ah, good old MUMPS. A former colleague of mine did write a scientific paper about it (https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/kirjasto/sarja-c-1980.html):

C-1981-40
Matti Björkbacka & Urpo Löfbacka & Päivi Rajakangas: MUMPS-järjestelmän toteuttaminen Mikko 3/36-tietokoneella. - Tekninen raportti.

Which roughly translates to "Implementing MUMPS on a Mikko 3/36 computer" (Mikko was one of the early minicomputers by Nokia, back in the good old days before the portable phone folly started. Btw, Nokia also manufactured an all-Ada computer MPS 10)

Finland is always high on the weird language space (and many go players). There are a lot of APLers up there!

@OP:
Don't get intimidated by all this bragging.
Nobody will ever hire and sponsor you because you know MUMPS.

Its not how many languages you know.
What matters is if you know the one that somebody needs.