In Russia daughters have a family name ending in ...aya. For example a daughter of Kovalevski would be Kovalevskaya. A son would be Kovalevski.
In some Scandinavian countries, similar to the situation in Russia, daughters' names end in ...dottir while sons' names end in ...sen. For example Anders's daughter would be Andersdottir and his son would be Anderssen.
Re: Re:
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:15 am
by Boidhre
Hiding off-topic reply to Mike:
Mike Novack wrote:
Thank you. I was about to point out that even among "western" societies the business about patralineal surnames wasn't universal. I can easily think of one where:
1) The father's name is used but this is only one generation and it's the father's first name.
2) Women do not change their name upon marriage.
3) Both of those are not recent developments but traditional.
I'll never forget listening to an interview during the time there was a summit in Iceland and because not enough hotel space news people were being put up in private homes and during a slack news time one of these decided to interview her hostess. Kept referring to her as "Mrs. Haroldson" (or whatever) and the Icelandic woman patiently tried over and over to explain "that's not what we do here". That her husband was Bui Haroldson (or whatever) meaning that his name was Bui and his father was Harold and she was Sigrid Arnesdatter (or whatever) meaning she was Sigid and her father was Arne, that Haroldson wasn't her husbands "surname" nor was Arnesdatter her's and that Icelandic women's names didn't change at marriage. Eventually she had to give up and allow herself be addressed as Mrs. Haroldson because the newswoman's brain couldn't seem to accept the concepts.
In Irish language surnames there's a distinction also, a married woman would take her husbands surname but would use the Uí rather than Ní prefix to indicate that she wasn't of the same bloodline. This is important under old Irish inheritance laws where it was possible for a daughter to inherit land where she had no brothers but the wife of a deceased brother of that woman own could not. There's some complication about what happens to the land after the daughter dies though, depending on who she married.
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:39 am
by tj86430
gowan wrote:
In some Scandinavian countries, similar to the situation in Russia, daughters' names end in ...dottir while sons' names end in ...sen. For example Anders's daughter would be Andersdottir and his son would be Anderssen.
That's Iceland only, and it would be -son not -sen. There the phonebook is organized by given name instead of surname.
About having two surnames (Garcia Marquez etc), how does it continue? I doubt grandchildren will have 4, great grandchildren 8 etc surnames.
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:26 am
by Uberdude
tj86430 wrote:About having two surnames (Garcia Marquez etc), how does it continue? I doubt grandchildren will have 4, great grandchildren 8 etc surnames.
Right, you take the father's part of your father's two surnames, and the father's part of your mother's two surnames, not both ones from both parents. So the male one does have priority, and when Spanish people register their name in single-surname places they usually use the father's one. So Gabriel García Márquez's dad would be Blah García <paternal grandmother surname> and mum would be Blah Márquez <maternal grandmother surname>, though actually checking wikipedia it seems his dad had only one surname: Gabriel Eligio García whilst mother was Luisa Santiaga Márquez Iguarán. I seem to recall in Portuguese they put mother's surname first, but still father's is the more important.
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:12 am
by masterz
So...what are you guys talking about?
王 銘琬 (Wang Ming Wan)'s family name was 鄭(zheng), but then he was adopted by 王（Wang) family who had no child, this is why his family name was changed, that's all.
In Minnan-speaking region it was very common at that time for people who have too many children to "donate" children to families who had no child for some reason.
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:35 pm
by Mike Novack
tj86430 wrote:[
That's Iceland only, and it would be -son not -sen. There the phonebook is organized by given name instead of surname.
Half right. The Icelandic phone books are organized by "given name" but not instead of "surname". They don't have surnames. The "son of" or "daughter of" is based on the father's given name. So it doesn't get passed down.
If Hrolf has a son Eric he would be called Eric Hrolfson. But if Eric has a son Leif, he would be called Leif Erikson.
At least people in that culture don't change names at life events! (there are cultures where this is common). We only slightly do that and whether we recognize that we need to consider "real name" how we are addresed as opposed to what might be on a piece of paper. Thus our babies are often given "official" given names that will serve as their given names only in adulthood if at all but in the intervening years are called something else.
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:57 pm
by tj86430
Mike Novack wrote:
tj86430 wrote:[
That's Iceland only, and it would be -son not -sen. There the phonebook is organized by given name instead of surname.
Half right. The Icelandic phone books are organized by "given name" but not instead of "surname". They don't have surnames. The "son of" or "daughter of" is based on the father's given name. So it doesn't get passed down.
If Hrolf has a son Eric he would be called Eric Hrolfson. But if Eric has a son Leif, he would be called Leif Erikson.
I know all that, but probably my English (my third language) is failing me. If Hrolfson is not "surname", what is it?
Re: O/Tei
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:18 pm
by skydyr
tj86430 wrote:
Mike Novack wrote:
tj86430 wrote:[
That's Iceland only, and it would be -son not -sen. There the phonebook is organized by given name instead of surname.
Half right. The Icelandic phone books are organized by "given name" but not instead of "surname". They don't have surnames. The "son of" or "daughter of" is based on the father's given name. So it doesn't get passed down.
If Hrolf has a son Eric he would be called Eric Hrolfson. But if Eric has a son Leif, he would be called Leif Erikson.
I know all that, but probably my English (my third language) is failing me. If Hrolfson is not "surname", what is it?
It's a patronymic. Surnames get handed down, whereas a patronymic doesn't get handed down the family lineage in the same way. Sometimes, historically, patronymics have turned into surnames, and some cultures use both (Russia, for example).
Or the simple general English term for that, and surnames, is last name, though that label doesn't work so well for Asian names where the family name comes first.
