Life In 19x19

Bill Spight wrote:

Bobby Fischer talked about crushing his opponent's ego. Go humbles us all.

One major contrast between said games is that Go is a game of creation, built on the concept of life. Chess, however, is an arena of destruction where mercy is not rewarded and the only goal of the game, as Fischer said, is to dominate your opponent. One thing I like about Go is the way that stronger players can go easy on a weaker players. I'm not at this level but I hear people talk about being able to jump into the game agressively and establish a winning advantage and then sit back and play passively to the end where you purposely win by 3.5 points. The nature of the game promotes coexistance; you realize quickly when learning that you can't get in the way of eveything your opponent tries to do, you can't kill all his stones, you can't prevent him from making some territory. Instead, what you're trying to do his allow your opponent to do whatever he wants, just as long as you end up just a little bit better off than him. In Chess, you can stop everything your opponent does and you can practially take all of his pieces. There is no "we both played well", rather one person lost and the other won. that's it. Because of this, I've seen a lot more arrogance and smacktalk type attitudes in Chess than in Go. I love the whole complex of the respect in Go. If someone beats you, its rude to be a bad sport and not except defeat, or too make excuses for why "I just played horribly that game",and you consider it an honor to beaten by a better player. Chess could use some of this.
As for the question that was asked about key moves in Chess, consider this: There are around 230-250 moves in an average game of Go. There are around 30-50 moves in a typical game of Chess (a move in Chess means both sides moving once so double that number for the Go equivalent). The difference this makes is that moves in Chess are far more "heavy" or significant than a move in Go. Simply because the game takes place in fewer moves, that means there's a lot more happening with each move. So, when you play both games as much as I do, you learn to think of one chess move in relation to a sequence of Go moves. Say you invade the 3x3 and live in a tight space. That was well played though it didn't come down to one particular move. In Chess, you can make one move that's as signifcant as an invasion living, a group being attacked and killed etc. So to answer the question: yes. You can make moves in Chess that look like God-moves. They'll appear to come from no where until you understand what's happened an then you're an awe, wondering how on earth you missed it but even more curious, how did your opponent see it? That being said, the "best" moves in Chess are the little, very slow, seemingly innocuous moves that your opponent pays no more attention to than a snake quitely passing through the tall grass. You must always strive to understand why your opponent just did what he did. To quote Fischer again: "Good tactical combinations are the result of good, strategic planning".

Despite what you may think, Go is extremely dynamic. I used to play chess but now Chess feels to me like a cramped puzzle.

From the point of view of complexity, Go is to chess what chess is to Tic-Tac-Toe.
Go is a game of construction and destruction. Chess is mostly destruction.
Chess is 99% tactics. Go has a lot more strategy.
Chess is one battle, Go is a war of many battles.
In chess, aiming to destroy your opponent will often lead to a win. At Go, you need to find more balance.


It may appear nebulous if you are a beginner but a stone at Go has power in many directions, sometimes it will have power on the other side of the board.

At Go, attacking is not always to capture. Attacking may be used to build territory somewhere else of the stones you are attacking.

Go is a game of give and take. If you want to take it all, you will loose. If you want to give it all, you will loose.

Go is like Golf. The fuseki is played with drivers, the Chuban is played with higher number irons and the Yose played with the putter. Like in Golf, in the Yose games are lost and won.


A chess opening will often give advantage to one side or the other. At go a joseki (local opening) is by definition balanced and gives no advantage to one or the other.... Unless the joseki was not wisely chosen according to the whole board situation.

When you play the same joseki twice, one it might be good, the other time it might be bad.

Learn to let the stones walk.

You need to play at least 100 games before starting to understand what it's all about.


Go is an infinitely beautiful game. It is very dynamic once you start to understand.

poiqwepoi wrote:...You need to play at least 100 games before starting to understand what it's all about....

Well now I just feel like a moron. You're supposed to have a clue what you're doing after 100 games?

poiqwepoi wrote: From the point of view of complexity, Go is to chess what chess is to Tic-Tac-Toe.

I guess you have never played shogi on a 25x25 board. (Me, either, but it has been done. )

Bill Spight wrote:

poiqwepoi wrote: From the point of view of complexity, Go is to chess what chess is to Tic-Tac-Toe.

I guess you have never played shogi on a 25x25 board. (Me, either, but it has been done. )

Much bigger has been done...

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21837356
2:15 in starts the fun as two shogi players get to see the variant for the first time...

In agreement with other replies, I believe that you will find all of those aspects, which you fondly appreciate from chess, in the game of go as well, and perhaps more so.

I think that a deep appreciation of the game of chess readily carries over into a deep appreciation of the game of go, and that your efforts toward discovering go will certainly not be wasted.

Personally, chess was long my favorite game, starting from learning in grade school and then playing avidly with friends during high school, until I discovered go later on after college. Since then, go has been my favorite game, but I would not say that I appreciate chess any less, but I have simply found much more in the intricacies and elegance of go.

There is an interesting story about Emanuel Lasker (World Chess Champion 1894-1921) and Edward Lasker, who was a friend of Emanuel (but no relation) and a chess international master. Edward, as co-founder of the American Go Association, played an important role in increasing the popularity/awareness of go in the west, where it is still a relatively new pursuit (in comparison to the centuries of chess popularity). The story can be found starting on the second page in this PDF:
http://web.archive.org/web/201107182349 ... merica.pdf

Bill Spight wrote:

poiqwepoi wrote: From the point of view of complexity, Go is to chess what chess is to Tic-Tac-Toe.

I guess you have never played shogi on a 25x25 board. (Me, either, but it has been done. )

I was talking about regular chess (8x8) vs. 19x19 Go.

Joelnelsonb wrote:

poiqwepoi wrote:...You need to play at least 100 games before starting to understand what it's all about....

Well now I just feel like a moron. You're supposed to have a clue what you're doing after 100 games?

Don't feel like a moron. Even after 100 games, you may not grasp the whole concept of Go. Things like:

-Influence
-direction of play (which is weird at first if you see the game as static)
-Power
-Sente
-Gote
-Half points
-Moyo vs. Territory
-Junk stones
-Key Stones
-Aji
-HEavy stones
-Running light
-Sabaki
-Thickness
-Ko
-...

And so many other strategic concepts that makes Go a game an almost infinite source of fun.

Like in chess, you have tactical motifs, among which you find
-Nets
-Ladders,
-Atekomi
- kosumi
-narabi
-hara-cuke
-hiki
-tsugi
-osae
-nuki
-miai
-tobi
-warikomi

to name a few. 100 games is far from enough. The more a play the more I admire the games of those who have mastered it, and the less I think that I ever had a clue about the game. I keep re-reading the same books and always learn something new in these thin beginners books.


My advice is to start reviewing professional games as soon as you can. Then try to explain every move. Go went through an evolution from its fundamentals to modern days. Games of Dosaku and Shusaku are really instructive and the motifs are simple enough and clear enough to study easily.

If you want to test your grasp of the game, memorizing a Shusaku game is a good test. Try to memorize it as a story that makes sense. You should be able to do so in a couple of hours if you grasp the basic concepts of go.(My humble opinion).


Another advice if you are just starting, don't bother studying joseki's. Chances are, your opponents will not follow them, there are too many. And if you don't know how to punish joseki mistakes, chances are, as a beginner, your opponent won't either.

Bill Spight wrote:

poiqwepoi wrote: From the point of view of complexity, Go is to chess what chess is to Tic-Tac-Toe.

I guess you have never played shogi on a 25x25 board. (Me, either, but it has been done. )

It depends on the version of Tic-tac-toe. If you have read my entry on SL you will know that I was introduced to go because of by games of four dimenensional tic-tac-toe (on a 4x4x4x4 board)