Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:11 am**

CarlJung wrote:
topazg wrote:Any idea for fun/interesting topics to cover next?

Thickness. How to use it. When to create it.

Ooh, that's a good one.

Posted: **Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:49 am**

Thanks for the video, topazg. You gave some clear explanations. A lot of what you said pretty much makes sense to me, but I had one question about a comment that you made.

In particular, you mentioned the "Cap and knight's move jump" as a way to attack the group. It seems like a good heuristic. However, I'm not clear why the knight's jump is superior to pressing white in the following diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree that it looks like the marked stone will be effective. However, what is wrong with a move like "a"? The move that feels most natural to me is "a", and I am curious about its disadvantages.

Posted: **Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:10 am**

Kirby wrote:Thanks for the video, topazg. You gave some clear explanations. A lot of what you said pretty much makes sense to me, but I had one question about a comment that you made.

In particular, you mentioned the "Cap and knight's move jump" as a way to attack the group. It seems like a good heuristic. However, I'm not clear why the knight's jump is superior to pressing white in the following diagram:
$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree that it looks like the marked stone will be effective. However, what is wrong with a move like "a"? The move that feels most natural to me is "a", and I am curious about its disadvantages.

Quick first question to guide you in dealing with how to handle the opponents' weak groups:

Are you attacking it, or fighting with it?

If you're attacking, then you have no weak groups and you're just making profit. Be fast, outside, stay ahead, gain profit, leave some weakness for future exploitation.

If you're fighting, then you also have a weak group, the two of you are in a liberty battle, and you'll be lucky if you make it out alive. Take liberties, increase your own, push to get out, make bad shape, you don't care what happens as long as YOU DON'T DIE!

Let's compare two diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 2 a O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X . . c b . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White almost connected, but he can still be cut. Maybe black decides not to right now, but even so the possibility is looming over White's head, oppressing his choices until something happens to change it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 2 4 a O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 3 c b . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, white connected. Still cut later at A, B, C, yes?

Not exactly the same situation. Have you read Otake Hideo's book, Opening Moves Made Easy (or something like that?) - he (or the translator) came up with a good name for this sort of situation: a family feud.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X X X 2 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By pushing through, black is forcing white to damage his own group and also the potential in the center. The three stones are no longer thick, they're heavy. So black has no cut.

tl;dr Make light, flexible shape in sente when you can - make slow moves when you must.

Posted: **Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:27 am**

Good explanation, ethanb.

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:24 am**

Well, I'm not sure the situation is so simple. It seems like black can seal in white as below and I don't think that white can actually escape anymore...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although the one-space jump by white looks more promising :>

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:48 am**

Prodigious wrote:Well, I'm not sure the situation is so simple. It seems like black can seal in white as below and I don't think that white can actually escape anymore...

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although the one-space jump by white looks more promising :>

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since white has the one-space jump in your second diagram, would you conclude that the knight's move is a better response than :b1:

, above?

Although, maybe black could do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O O X O X O O , X . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . 3 . X . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 O 5 . . X O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X X O . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks

Re: New Vid - capping attacks