Life In 19x19

I was fortunate to have a teacher when I was about 13k, who I think in retrospect was crucial in helping me progress to my current 1d/2d-ish level. The teacher was a retired Japanese businessman, about 6d in strength, who spent his retirement traveling around the world teaching go! He spent six months in South Africa, and for a few of those months, he was staying near to me, and I got to play him a few times a week. While he helped me reach 6 or 7k, with some tactical and strategic lessons, the more valuable lessons were about attitude. It's very difficult to distil them into a few sentences, the point is that for me a teacher made a huge long term difference.

I didn't do any grinding of tsumego until I was around 2k. I would have found that off-putting at 12k.

quantumf wrote:retired Japanese businessman, about 6d

Nice!

quantumf wrote:I didn't do any grinding of tsumego until I was around 2k. I would have found that off-putting at 12k.

Performance in the problems which are being done now will be able to be compared to problems being done in a few months, and that will be rewarding.

I haven't played a game in 4 years apart from a few 9x9 games against igowin. Probably played less than 50 games in my life. It will be interesting to see how the shapes and patterns and reading will transfer over to real games.

It's probably quite unusual for a player to come from the tsumego-first direction, instead of playing lots of games, getting to 2kyu and then grinding tsumego like yourself. At the moment it doesn't feel like grinding.

The time you spend writing here about your progress or the lack of it, is time you are not spending on Go itself. Figure out what you need to do to become a great player (or get a teacher, as often said before). It is extremely unlikely the list will feature writing here.

Knotwilg wrote:It is extremely unlikely the list will feature writing here.

You know, you're right.

I'm very good at procrastinating. KGS should be my new home, not fannying around on forums.

Kirby wrote:I have mixed feelings about having a teacher. I'm a member of the Yunguseng Dojang as well, and I think Inseong's lessons are a lot of fun.

Basically, you'll get what you put into study, whether you have a teacher or not.

The best comparison I can think of at the moment is the navigation system I have in my car. I love the navigation system, because it guides me where I want to go - if I need to go to a new address, just type it in, and it can lead me there. But at the same time, I depend too much on my navigation system sometimes. If I'm in a car that doesn't have a navigation system, I easily get lost. I don't know the streets that well, because I totally trust the navigation system.

The best situation would be if I knew the streets well without the navigation system, and still had the navigation system for situations when I needed it.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, a teacher will point you in the right direction. But keep in mind that you're the driver. If the navigation system goes out, make sure you know the roads well yourself.

That being said, I'd still recommend a teacher. I love being a part of the AYD. But maybe more than for improvement, I enjoy it because it's fun... And you can feel cool about having a navigation system.

I really like this post by Kirby. This is something I have struggled with at times both in chess and go. I have tried lessons for both go and chess. I did find that there seems to be a conflict for me. Even if the desire for a teacher comes from a sincere motivation to work and get better, there seems to be real trade off for me. Somehow even if I am conscious of the issue before hand, there's a feeling that the lessons somehow change my motivation level. I no longer feel "in charge" of my progress in the same way.

This is slightly different from what Kirby expressed but I think for me the two are closely related.

I'm not at all bagging on lessons and I think it's obvious that for many people they can be an amazing investment. But I think this issue does bear some thinking about.

Depending on the type of person you are, you can take a teacher to keep up your motivation level, lay out an educational path, inspire with knowledge or to point out where you were right or wrong in your decision making.

If you find your teacher is taking over the "why" and this reduces your own motivation level because you're intrinsically motivated, then change. Likewise if your teacher is only pointing out "how" but you need an external source of motivation. Not every teacher fits every student.

It's a good idea to figure out why you want a teacher and to discuss this when first discussing matters with a potential teacher.

Most of the people posting their journal here are clearly looking for an external stimulus. They are extraverts, needing (positive) feedback, externalizing their efforts. As I've somewhat crudely stated above, this is a waste of time, except that without it their efforts would probably stall. Hence, most of us should probably be looking for a motivational teacher.

Teachers really are popular as a recommendation mmm? I don't know if a group lecture is a good fit for me though. I might enjoy the game reviews. Do you have anyone in mind?

sorry, I should get a teacher myself - I can't recommend anyone from experience. There should be info either on the teacher/lessons section of this forum or on Sensei's library.


oh and from your comment - "you've probably played only 50 games or so" I would say, forget about teachers, computer opponents (and perhaps Go books) and play a couple of hundred games of Go as soon as you can

This is my second update.

To get a rating on KGS as quickly as possible I played 4 bots. I came out at 10kyu which is a little too high in my opinion.

I played a game on KGS today against an 8kyu, I had 2 stones.

I struggled with the speed of the game. 30 second byo-yomi periods is probably fine, but I found 20 second periods too quick. I also went into byo-yomi quite quickly and seemed to panic a bit.

A brief summary of the game: I came out of the opening well and was on the verge of wining, but middlegame errors allowed the other player to destroy some territory and I lost.

I've added comments to the game, I'd appreciate any amount of time you can spare to be critical and please point out what are my weak areas at this time.



Later today I will do some more tsumego. A short update this week, more next week.

Hi Jujube,

Of course.

No problem. Open your mind about the opening.

Ditto.

Cut at C16. W ataris C17.
You drop to B16. W blocks at B17.
You atari E16. W connects.
You hane at C13. W ataris B15.
You atari B14. W takes.
You fix your cut at D13 (solid connect or tiger's mouth D12.)
Standard sequence -- the trade for not jumping out to D14 or C14.
You get the outside; W gets the corner.
Already worth this game to learn it.

This result is no problem for these levels.
But you could've done better -- see sequence above.

- Standard bad habit. You force W to live with good shape;
you fix W's weakness for him. Big thank you move.
Locally, if you hit at the vital point S13 yourself, W is dead shape.

Notice if you played here directly on ,
W could not have resisted with .
But, thanks to your generous - exchange,
giving W excellent shape, now W could resist with good shape at .

Soft. Hane P13.

Your note here shows the same bad habit, bad thinking as .
Yes, the turn at A (N17) is a big endgame move.
But your eye should be on the vital point L18.
Your current bad habit is to visualize N17 - L18
-- which is OK, but instead of rejecting it, you're happy to play it too early, which is not OK --
( Forcing W to live with good shape; exactly the same bad habit as - .)
Instead, aim at the vital point L18 yourself, to kill.
( This bad habit is also evident with your - sequence --
you're not thinking at all about W's weakness L18;
rather, just happy to secure small territory in the opening, like .)

Block the other side, Q3. Take cash. You're not building any big moyo here, with , etc.

Yes, W has a weakness there. But L3 is probably bigger.

W got it. You missed it.

Small, slow, too early.

Soft. Wrong shape. (Possibly bad habit, too.)
The local move is hane-block B2.
But globally, this is small. The turn at C11 is bigger.

Maybe just jump to C10 is better.

Kind of broken shape feeling for Black.
Compare the result if you had turned at C11 on .
See also toothpaste .

- Standard bad habit. See , .

( Quick tally up to : basic shape problems, basic tesuji problems,
basic bad habits, basic contact fight problems: total ~10.
Nebulous, grandiose opening issues: Zero.
{ is borderline. }
This is standard for many (most?) adults for these levels.
Gives some perspective what's important to focus on.

See also this thread, posts 42 and 45.
)

Ed, that was extremely helpful and I need to thank you for taking the time to review the game. I was following the game with you and refreshing the page as you were typing, and I've put your comments in the SGF file alongside my own so I can look back at it in the future too.

I will work on cutting out those bad habits!
Which are:

1. Don't chase W in a direction they want to go (toothpaste)
2. Don't make exchanges that force W to live / make shape, they aren't good
3. Instead, play at the vital points to force W to run and kill him if he doesn't
4. Remember how to exchange that corner sequence at C16
5. Don't make soft moves e.g. extending when you should hane
6. If you don't have a moyo to extend, take the direction which gives profit

I'm going to try some sequences from the game to see what happens after I play on L18 or S13. I might have a follow-up question if I'm not sure about something.

Edit: Oh, and several people in this thread have told me to get a teacher. I think I'm beginning to understand why...

Hi Jujube,

You're very welcome.

The teacher discussion is yet another huge can of worms; I've refrained from kibitz so far.

Ed, I'm having problems reading this. (The vital points on move 30 and 40). There are three things that B might be able to do:

- Wall-in W, so as to make W live small
- Split W and capture a group
- Kill W



Also, in the later example, move 40, W has an extra liberty, so W can defend at L17. What happens now?

I'm being slow & not quite getting it!

Hi Jujube,

Good question. It's a vital point.
It does not mean it works now.
I never said to play it now.
If it does not work right now, you have to wait.

Eventually, either W has to spend a move there to fix it,
or, the game will have changed so the situation is different.

Two things, as you mentioned:

• See the vital point;
• Don't help your opponent fix it. (as usual, there are exceptions)

One more:

• Recognition of a bad habit (or a bad move) is one thing;
  finding a better move (or moves) is another all together (sometimes).

This is another common (bad?) habit from beginners.
A bad move is pointed out; they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have not digested why the first move is bad yet!
In some cases, yes, a better move is easy to spot;
but this is not always the case.

Analogy: it's (much) easier to spot an crooked circle than
it is to draw a perfect one freehand.

Another very common example: the broken shapes, for example --toothpaste .
They make a bad broken shape; it is pointed out to them;
they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have zero understanding about broken shapes yet!
And the mistake could be a few moves prior, even 20 moves ago.
So the first thing is recognition of the bad broken shapes. This takes time.
( Of course, again, if a better move is easy to spot, great; but this is not always true. )

EdLee wrote: Two things, as you mentioned:

• See the vital point;
• Don't help your opponent fix it. (as usual, there are exceptions)

One more:

• Recognition of a bad habit (or a bad move) is one thing;
  finding a better move (or moves) is another all together (sometimes).

This is another common (bad?) habit from beginners.
A bad move is pointed out; they immediately ask, What's a better move?
Wait a moment! You have not digested why the first move is bad yet!

Right! (Cool anecdote, by the way).

Don't force the opponent to fix their weaknesses. Let them find the time to fix it on their own.
Meanwhile, the local situation might change, and I might find a sequence to exploit it.

If I played the game again, I would turn at C12. That seems a decent move.

But....... what if W pushes through T16? This is small right? But if now B tenuki, W ataris, then takes the whole corner! It is hard to stomach. Yet if I respond at e.g. S17, then W fixes, I'm in the same position as before but my corner is smaller!