Anyone give a darn about go in the West?

[DrStraw]

The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

Home page -> Tournaments -> Tournament Crosstabs
http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/crosstab/

You already posted that link and it is the one I am referring to as being useless for the purposes of determining who is leading. For all I know the people who have 5-0 score could all be 20k with McMahon scores of -15. We need a table which indicates relative position.

[xed_over]

For all I know the people who have 5-0 score could all be 20k with McMahon scores of -15. We need a table which indicates relative position.

I agree. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to make that change happen.

[happysocks]

Absolutely! While I usually follow the world championships (go and chess) with fascination and wonder the US and European Championships are also very interesting. This year as was watching another fantastically covered US Chess Championships (men's and women's!) by the Saint Louis Chess Club I couldn't help but wonder when go fans might see something similar in quality. Andrew Jackson and the AGA team in their coverage of Congress this year have really given us something to be grateful for. And while the EGC covarage was a little bit glitchy they seemed to have worked through most of their issues as the championships wore on. Quite enjoyed Li Cong's game commentary as well as the lectures by Catalin and Co and pair go final coverage with Jabarin 1p was a real treat. Suffice to say am a big fan of western go and hold big hopes for their future!

As for this year there is so much good content it will take me some time to go through it but the plan is to enjoy every last bit of it.

US Congress coverage (and more) can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/USGOWeb

Eurpean Congress coverage here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-7c9v ... zj1Rn_yOTQ

[Shenoute]

(...) Here we have the new European pros such as popular KGS players Roln111 (Ilya Shikshin), Cheater (Pavol Lisy), OohAah (Ali Jabarin) and Breakfast (Alexandre Dinerchtein) and others battling it out for the title of European Champion, as well as a main tournament open to players of all nations. We have a well done website which offers live streaming of the competition and game records. We have the top boards all being broadcast on KGS, and yet here on the main forum for go in the western world, nary a word. (...)

Well, I watched a few games of the EGC on KGS but I can easily see why many (most?) people would not:
- it is long
- there is no commentary (either live or after the event )
- despite being summer, I guess a lot of people still have to go to work

Point 2) is especially important. Where are the commented games?

To me, this question is somewhat related to a point that was raised again and again when I was part of a club that organised a tournament: should we a) offer high money prizes to entice the strong european players to come or b) use the money to make the tournament less expensive for the go poulation as a whole?

After a few years of having (some) strong european players attending the tournament, it became clear to me that I was more interested in b). The fact that strong players were there had absolutely no influence on my tournament. They were not commenting games, no workshop was organised, etc. And indeed, who could blame them?, they were here to win the tournament, which required a lot of work, not for teaching purposes.

In my mind, this is related to Europe now having pro players. Sure, it is a good thing for them and it may motivate young players to improve their skills and try becoming a pro too. But why should I watch their games instead of, say, those of pro players on Wbaduk? What go material are they producing that we, the rank and file, can use and enjoy?

I'd like very much to go through Ali's, Ilya's or Pavol's games with their comments. This would of course be a good way to learn more about go but also about them, their style, personality, preferences, relationship to go, etc. In other words, make these pros real for me!

[Knotwilg]

On one hand I am disappointed about the lack of exposure the European top players generate for themselves. A notable exception used to be Antti Tormanen but he seems to have discovered the communicating vessels of writing about go and becoming better at it: his great blog has been defunct for more than a year now. So that's the other side of the coin and it seems that promotion and marketing should be left to the organizing bodies. Indeed, Cristiano Ronaldo didn't think about making a persona back when he juggled the ball as a teenager. The environment in which his image could thrive was there already.

When the institutions are as weak as those of European Go, disappointment is bound to occur. We need a stronger base and a stronger top. They go hand in hand. A stronger base will generate more and better players. More exposure for the top will attract more newcomers. I'm afraid though it's a lost battle against Minecraft and all.

[Uberdude]

A notable exception used to be Antti Tormanen but he seems to have discovered the communicating vessels of writing about go and becoming better at it: his great blog has been defunct for more than a year now.

Oh noes!!!!!!!! The communicating vessels have returned! They will destroy this forum with their level liquid.
viewtopic.php?p=170307#p170307

And back to the original point, I was following the EGC and USGC somewhat, but not as much were I unemployed. I observed or kibitzed on KGS rather than writing about the games here. When I posted my EGC games on this forum two years ago there wasn't much interest, but perhaps that was because they weren't in real time and I'm not a top player.

I thought the video coverage of both events was nicely done (board and players, superimposing coordinates etc). I remember on some previous commentaries I said I thought Andrew Jackson talked too much (viewtopic.php?p=180682#p180682), this time I thought he got a good balance of letting the pros talk and making sure they explain things enough. But like DrStraw I don't like these crosstabs (but include game links is nice) and prefer sorting by McMahon (the EGC wall list was very nicely done with clicking on players to show their opponents, though for some strange reason it reverse-sorted on my smartphone).

[Knotwilg]

A notable exception used to be Antti Tormanen but he seems to have discovered the communicating vessels of writing about go and becoming better at it: his great blog has been defunct for more than a year now.

Oh noes!!!!!!!! The communicating vessels have returned! They will destroy this forum with their level liquid.
viewtopic.php?p=170307#p170307

Sorry dude. I'll try remembering that. "communicating vessels" is a literal translation of a common analogy in our language. Now that you made me think about it, indeed the saying doesn't make much physical sense. What we're looking for here is a conservation law, whereas "communicating vessels" is more about equal distribution of what has been added or substracted to the whole.

Sadness! Sadness! The thread started with a lament about a lack of content and now the form's at stake too!

[hyperpape]

The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

Home page -> Tournaments -> Tournament Crosstabs
http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/crosstab/

You already posted that link and it is the one I am referring to as being useless for the purposes of determining who is leading. For all I know the people who have 5-0 score could all be 20k with McMahon scores of -15. We need a table which indicates relative position.

The initial entry band should be there, full stop.

However, you can a feel for it from that table, even if it's a bit painful. The numbers next to the player names are normally indicative of their rank on entering the tournament, so Albert Yen-21 is in the top band.

[hyperpape]

The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

Home page -> Tournaments -> Tournament Crosstabs
http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/crosstab/

However, it's not linked from the congress website, as far as I can tell.

[tekesta]

When chess Giants Nakamura and Aronian had their face-off in New York, it was about the players, the site had both of them full-page advertising spread of mean-looking chess players duelling it out. It drew the crowds and generated a lot of attention. Do you think many tournaments in one congress (not to mention it being scheduled at the same time as the American congress, in the holiday season) means that you can't see the wood for the trees? Where is the main event?

And now for my next victim

Looks like Jujube hit it on the head, although one should also mention that Chess is already established in North American society as a legit board game. If the USGC were to publish a full-page spread of two Go players staring each other in the face with the eye of the tiger and a caption that reads, "Only one will come out on top!", would Go Congress organizers be able to get large crowds? In the case of the Nakamura vs. Aronian Chess match, the presentation was carefully executed. And I think that, for us in the Go community of the West, this is one of our most significant issues in our attempts at propagating the game.

Unless we are talking about soccer moms at a tournament featuring Go-playing children or a Chinese school hosting a Go tournament, only Go players attend Go Congresses. Hurtful for me to say this, but there should not be any big surge in the number of Go players in North America (US, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean) in the near future. All gains will have to be millimetric. In the meantime, we Go players will have to think about the kind of image many of us project in the eyes of the general public. Makes me wonder how many of us ought to be dressed in formal wear (e.g., tuxedos, three-piece suits, Bermuda wear) when playing Go; my daily wear is nothing to write home about, but it might be getting in the way of me spreading the game.

Which reminds me, in the US at least soccer moms - in all their forms - are a powerful demographic. What thoughts are they harboring in regards to whether they should allow their children to take up weiqi (the term "go" is vulnerable to bad puns), when they see how most of us weiqi players dress whenever playing a game?

[gowan]

It seems that not very many L19 members care about the AGA Congress results. No one has remarked that our L19 member Kirby won all six games in the open tournament and, apparently, placed 3rd overall! Congratulations to Kirby.

[DrStraw]

It seems that not very many L19 members care about the AGA Congress results. No one has remarked that our L19 member Kirby won all six games in the open tournament and, apparently, placed 3rd overall! Congratulations to Kirby.

That's because no one knew! Congratulations to Kirby.

[Kirby]

It seems that not very many L19 members care about the AGA Congress results. No one has remarked that our L19 member Kirby won all six games in the open tournament and, apparently, placed 3rd overall! Congratulations to Kirby.

That's because no one knew! Congratulations to Kirby.

Thank you very much.

I feel very happy about my performance during the tournament. In fairness to the other competitors, I should note that, while I am in third place on the crosstab results, as DrStraw hinted at earlier, the crosstab results are ordered by wins. I was one of 5 people in the tournament having a score of 6-0, and my entered rank was third place among those 5 (two people entered at a higher rank and still had a 6-0 score).

Nonetheless, I feel great about winning my division, and I hope to play competitively in a stronger division next year

[EdLee]

No one has remarked that our L19 member Kirby won all six games

*

[Bantari]

I did not even know the European was going on. Seems strange to have it the same week as the US. Had I know I would have followed the results. Had the results to the US been available I would have been following it more closely. (Yes, I know they were available, but in a format which was useless for seeing who was ahead.) As it is, there is little to talk about when information is not available.

Heh... I did not know neither was going on.

There is definitely a problem with advertising and communication in Go. I cannot believe that there are two major Go events happening in the west and neither of them is really covered on the one english-language forum which dinds us all together. I really don't get it... There should have been blow-by-blow accounts, terying to draw people in. Instead we have what? Mostly silence.

I think the problem is much more wide-spread and silently accepted than I though before. I remember not so long ago, when Mateusz Surma became an EuroPro, I was very excited about that, and I went to all kinds of Polish-language sites and forums and whatnot to see what they say about it, how they celebrate. And I have not found a single mention of that fact! Granted - I did not look for very long, since I got disgusted pretty quick, but still... it should have been front-page news, big fat red font and all!!!

Same for the EGC and USGC. At least this is my impression, as somebody who does not really goes far out of my way to look for stuff.

What gives, Go officials and organizers?
Putting up some juicy announcements and frequent reports is not very hard, not very time consuming - especially in free and "friendly" venues, like this forum. And it can do wonders to stir up some interest and action.

What gives?