Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:43 pm
John Fairbairn wrote:So maybe, for some people, the trick for alertly relaxing in go is to assume you've already lost.
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Rapid calculation
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Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:20 pm
When I do this in the games I post for review here, you all get on my case for my bad attitude.So maybe, for some people, the trick for alertly relaxing in go is to assume you've already lost.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:11 pm
Well, you still have to play to win despite the assumption.Fedya wrote:When I do this in the games I post for review here, you all get on my case for my bad attitude.So maybe, for some people, the trick for alertly relaxing in go is to assume you've already lost.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:23 pm
But Fedya, you never relax when you think you are losing!Fedya wrote:When I do this in the games I post for review here, you all get on my case for my bad attitude.So maybe, for some people, the trick for alertly relaxing in go is to assume you've already lost.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:26 pm
I wanted to say something about meaning.
What is the meaning of this corner position, assuming all the Black stones to be alive?
It looks like an 8 point corner for White, but I have learned that if Black plays first she can get a seki or 10,000 year ko. White to play can secure 7 points.
This White play looks obvious, and I gave the position no further thought.
Until I started playing around with brute force search. Then I considered this play.
I had ignored this play as meaningless, but now I was forced to look at it.
threatens to make an eye at “a” with 
.
BTW, this is something that I just saw. To understand positions and plays you sometimes need to consider tenuki.
This is another sequence that I saw.
prevents the eye at “a”, but ends up getting killed as part of a larger eye.
This is another sequence I saw. It ends in a familiar seki.
To prevent that, White has to play at
to kill the Black stones.
Another sequence I saw. After, if White plays to try to make the eye at “a”, 
makes an approach ko or 10,000 year ko.
But White has to make two eyes for life. Unless you have learned the corner eye shape, it may not be obvious. It is curious in that it is an eye but not a liberty.
@ 3
can capture two White stones, but then catches two White stone in a snapback, to retain the eye. But after the sente sequence, - , the White chain has no liberty in the eye. That could matter in some circumstances, as White may not have time to play the snapback.
So the apparently meaningless actually makes two eyes in a strange way. The meaning of is revealed in the sequences that follow.
Frankly, I was delighted to find the sequence with the strange eye in the corner. It has two forms in which two stones are in atari. The snapback is one of those chunks that make calculation easier. That eye is something that every kyu player should learn about, as well as the seki.
What is the meaning of this corner position, assuming all the Black stones to be alive?
It looks like an 8 point corner for White, but I have learned that if Black plays first she can get a seki or 10,000 year ko. White to play can secure 7 points.
This White play looks obvious, and I gave the position no further thought.
Until I started playing around with brute force search. Then I considered this play.
I had ignored this play as meaningless, but now I was forced to look at it.
threatens to make an eye at “a” with . BTW, this is something that I just saw. To understand positions and plays you sometimes need to consider tenuki.
This is another sequence that I saw.
prevents the eye at “a”, but ends up getting killed as part of a larger eye.This is another sequence I saw. It ends in a familiar seki.
To prevent that, White has to play at
to kill the Black stones.Another sequence I saw. After
, if White plays to try to make the eye at “a”, makes an approach ko or 10,000 year ko.But White has
to make two eyes for life. Unless you have learned the corner eye shape, it may not be obvious. It is curious in that it is an eye but not a liberty. @ 3 can capture two White stones, but then catches two White stone in a snapback, to retain the eye. But after the sente sequence, - , the White chain has no liberty in the eye. That could matter in some circumstances, as White may not have time to play the snapback.So the apparently meaningless
actually makes two eyes in a strange way. The meaning of is revealed in the sequences that follow. Frankly, I was delighted to find the sequence with the strange eye in the corner. It has two forms in which two stones are in atari. The snapback is one of those chunks that make calculation easier. That eye is something that every kyu player should learn about, as well as the seki.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:42 am
macelee posted a life & death problem just now. I took one look and "knew" the answer instantly (felt like a pro for a fleeting moment ). What I mean is that I saw, without any conscious effort, the elements of a possible seki, miai threats to make eyes, shortage of liberties, and possible connection along the edge. I saw a few other peripheral things but was conscious of discarding them at once.
There is a possibility that I am specially attuned to this kind of thing because I edited the massive Gateway to All Marvels, but I am much more inclined to believe that this sort of response is common even among amateurs.
I might add that I also believe that my next response is common among amateurs - I did a very quick calculation of a few moves to satisfy myself I was right, and then very sloppily stopped without looking for killer replies. But that's a response that is curable with a cilice or some other form of self discipline, so is not relevant here.
What is relevant here, to rapid calculation, is that very first approach. I therefore think we need to introduce the concept of "pre-processing" into the conversation. What should be pre-processed, how reliable is it, how is pre-processing done, can it be improved (e.g. by establishing a hierarchy of elements, or by giving useful names to common elements)?
And is pre-processing different from finding a list of best moves to analyse? I think it is, because pre-processing deals with large chunks and more goal-directed ideas.
). What I mean is that I saw, without any conscious effort, the elements of a possible seki, miai threats to make eyes, shortage of liberties, and possible connection along the edge. I saw a few other peripheral things but was conscious of discarding them at once.There is a possibility that I am specially attuned to this kind of thing because I edited the massive Gateway to All Marvels, but I am much more inclined to believe that this sort of response is common even among amateurs.
I might add that I also believe that my next response is common among amateurs - I did a very quick calculation of a few moves to satisfy myself I was right, and then very sloppily stopped without looking for killer replies. But that's a response that is curable with a cilice or some other form of self discipline, so is not relevant here.
What is relevant here, to rapid calculation, is that very first approach. I therefore think we need to introduce the concept of "pre-processing" into the conversation. What should be pre-processed, how reliable is it, how is pre-processing done, can it be improved (e.g. by establishing a hierarchy of elements, or by giving useful names to common elements)?
And is pre-processing different from finding a list of best moves to analyse? I think it is, because pre-processing deals with large chunks and more goal-directed ideas.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:49 am
Rapid calculation does not mean "fast because it is wrong or very incomplete". It should mean "fast despite being correct and reasonably complete". Such can start with pre-processing but the verification part of reading must not be omitted.
So fast that one might not be able to decipher every meaning of every part of one's thinking live does not necessarily mean "subconscious / intuitive reading" but can simply mean the former. One does not get so fast reading by being a beginner staring at positions and miraculously improving one's speed - reading speed requires training, which must also rely on understanding meanings on which training can be built.
So fast that one might not be able to decipher every meaning of every part of one's thinking live does not necessarily mean "subconscious / intuitive reading" but can simply mean the former. One does not get so fast reading by being a beginner staring at positions and miraculously improving one's speed - reading speed requires training, which must also rely on understanding meanings on which training can be built.
Re: Rapid calculation
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:30 am
This kind of pre-processing is something I had in mind when I proposed applying the idea of the trivium to go ( http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10546 ). Perhaps the three point nakade and the miai to prevent the eye would belong to the grammar of go, and chunks would belong to the dialectic. I do think that giving names to things is helpful, as is organizing the material (and a hierarchical structure seems right).John Fairbairn wrote:What is relevant here, to rapid calculation, is that very first approach. I therefore think we need to introduce the concept of "pre-processing" into the conversation. What should be pre-processed, how reliable is it, how is pre-processing done, can it be improved (e.g. by establishing a hierarchy of elements, or by giving useful names to common elements)?
And is pre-processing different from finding a list of best moves to analyse? I think it is, because pre-processing deals with large chunks and more goal-directed ideas.