Life In 19x19

John Fairbairn wrote:And this on a site that supposedly prides itself on welcoming people whose first language is not English.

We are also a site that welcomes females.

I too recognised this user as the same as who posts similar "Any hot girls want to date me as I'm rich*/handsome/dan player" nonsense on KGS.

Fair enough. Sounds like he's away with the fairies. In which case maybe sympathy is called for, although as go is the game of cuts, a more drastic solution might be indicated to curb his intemperance.

DrStraw wrote:All I can say, Ed, is that if you have enough free time to compile that post then you are not playing enough go.

Let's see:

• It only took, literally, about 5 seconds to search and receive all the graphs.
• Perhaps another 3-4 minutes max. to put together the post.
• I regularly (almost daily) spend more than 5 minutes on any one particularly difficult move (for me); and I usually have more than one such move per game, per day.
• If we define "enough Go" to be the top 1 percentile time spent by all the amateurs (worldwide), you're probably correct.
• Otherwise, if we define "enough Go" by almost any other reasonable percentile of time spent by amateurs, you're most likely wrong.

Oh, and have a nice day.

Javaness2 wrote:I can't speak for others, but rushing would entail not having seen the same behaviour elsewhere for years from the very same person.

Apparently you can speak for me too, at least

(therefore I’d even have replied the same way I did in that other thread if I’d already had my three buckets of coffee )

<edit>

Also, that wasn't really in “introduction”, was it? I’d expect somebody to tell a bit about themselves here.

Also #2: </edit>

EdLee wrote:

longshanks wrote:Assuming it were on topic and not offensive, wouldn't the better question be are there any women playing beautiful Go?

By some measures, that's a more offensive and worse question.

There are all kinds of standards and double standards.
Wasn't there a recent thread about the separate tourneys for women and men ?
The current annual pro qualification tourney in China, for example --
female candidates compete among themselves, separate from the male candidates.

Many interesting and difficult questions. Research needed.

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What I find interesting is why do you think any of the above is interesting?

EdLee wrote:

DrStraw wrote:All I can say, Ed, is that if you have enough free time to compile that post then you are not playing enough go.

Let's see:

• It only took, literally, about 5 seconds to search and receive all the graphs.
• Perhaps another 3-4 minutes max. to put together the post.
• I regularly (almost daily) spend more than 5 minutes on any one particularly difficult move (for me); and I usually have more than one such move per game, per day.
• If we define "enough Go" to be the top 1 percentile time spent by all the amateurs (worldwide), you're probably correct.
• Otherwise, if we define "enough Go" by almost any other reasonable percentile of time spent by amateurs, you're most likely wrong.

Oh, and have a nice day.

Then you are more proficient than I. It would take me about the same length of time it takes to play a game on KGS.

This discussion is not a singular or exceptional event. In a go chatroom just the other day, people were talking about how ugly most female go players are. A similar event was my personal very first experience with online go and almost resulted in giving it up immediately before trying go at all.

This kind of talk serves to make clear to everyone that the people talking are actually only men expecting to talk to only other men *about* women. For them, female go players are just there to be judged according to their appearances, not as respected conversation partners, not as respected game opponents. I might note that the Hikaru No Go anime had a lot of instances of the same patterns and prejudices and says a lot about the sexism of the wider go community to have made possible such a product.

This is not a singular troll, but a very common way of talking in male-dominated groups. It is especially disgusting that the very same kind of speakers then use the disapperance of women from this hostile environment as sure-fire proof that there must be something biological about it, because what else could be the reason for women not liking to be insulted and talked about instead of being talked to?

I commend this site for having some people who spoke up against this post, I commend this site rather less for having several people who tried to enter the intended conversation and who made it a "what if the post were about men" while totally ignoring the asymmetric situation. An appropriate comparison would be the treatment of a lone father in a single-parent support group who is judged by the female majority, not "hey it would be totally ok, if we just pretended that a group of mostly heterosexual men is not judging the few women when they talk about whose appearance they approve of".

Of course, now many people will get very defensive because they are good people by defintion, therefore, they cannot be sexist in any way, therefore, it is very bad to point out sexism because it hurts their feelings, and men's hurt feelings are valuable things, not like women's hurt feelings who are just a sign that they don't have enough humour to know that it is funny if men insult women.

Gotraskhalana wrote:
I commend this site for having some people who spoke up against this post, I commend this site rather less for having several people who tried to enter the intended conversation and who made it a "what if the post were about men" while totally ignoring the asymmetric situation.

I say this because I doubt you would bat an eye or even care about the conversation if it was about men and I take that as hyppocritical.

Abyssinica wrote:

Gotraskhalana wrote:
I commend this site for having some people who spoke up against this post, I commend this site rather less for having several people who tried to enter the intended conversation and who made it a "what if the post were about men" while totally ignoring the asymmetric situation.

I say this because I doubt you would bat an eye or even care about the conversation if it was about men and I take that as hyppocritical.

Here, I'll help you by quoting Gotraskhalana, again:

Gotraskhalana wrote:asymmetric situation

Define that because I'm not entirely sure what it means

Abyssinica wrote:I say this because I doubt you would bat an eye or even care about the conversation if it was about men and I take that as hyppocritical.

Abyssinica wrote:Define that because I'm not entirely sure what it means

If you don't understand it, why don't you first put in some effort to educate yourself ?
Or you could've asked. Politely. For clarification.
Instead, thanks to your own ignorance, you decided to say something nasty to Gotraskhalana.

And what is with that tone -- "Define that because I'm not entirely sure what it means"

You are the person here who is ignorant. You seek information and help from others here.
Didn't anyone teach you to say please ?

BTW, what you said in this recent thread:

Cho's wife was critically ill so he could not play.

Abyssinica wrote:What an escaper...

Extremely bad taste. What is the matter with you.



To expand on Gotraskhalana's post, such comments are very clear exhibits of the Online disinhibition effect .

1) I don't see which part was nasty, but maybe I think nasty is a different thing

2) That's my sense of humour to lighten the mood whether or not you think it's in bad taste.

3) When I ask you [not you, Edlee] to define something, that's because I wanted to know how you use the term is different from how I interpret it. I can look up things all I want but it doesn't matter if I still retain a different sense of what you mean from what you intend to mean. What do I think asymmetric situation means? That women are reported to have more harassment of this nature than men? Sure, that's what I thought. I'm not sure what everyone else thought, and I still don't believe that's (how I read it) a good enough reason for what I considered to be the hypocracy. My tone when I say "define that" is in exactly the same tone I thought Kirby was using when he posted - condescension.

4) I'm like this in real life as well so it's not necessarily a clear example of the effect although it might be exaggerated.

Thanks, Gotraskhalana, for sharing your perspective. In a sensitive conversation like this, that takes courage.

Abyssinica, in this case I think that the "asymmetric situation" does not refer to the notion that comments like this are more likely to occur towards women in general, but that we find ourselves participating in a male dominated hobby. That doesn't excuse rude behavior towards men, but it does mean that comments like this are likely to be perceived differently by those in the minority. I know that I am not categorically unwelcome in a go playing community, because most of the (western) go playing community is very like me. A woman facing comments that make her feel uncomfortable does not have that advantage.

Abyssinica wrote:My tone when I say "define that" is in exactly the same tone I thought Kirby was using when he posted - condescension.

Perhaps my tone was condescending. But I felt it appropriate to comment in a very direct way for two reasons:
1. It seemed that you totally ignored Gotraskhalana's point, just for a chance to call him/her a hypocrite.
2. This behavior clearly offends people.

Perhaps we have different ideas of what's offensive. Maybe you think I'm offensive. If you really think that way, I don't know what to do about that. I guess people can't agree on everything.

I'm okay with disagreeing. But I do hope that we can avoid offending large groups of people (maybe women, in this particular case) on the forum.

Let's aim for that.

Nothing much ... I like Go and I like beautiful women, so I am simply asking if there are any beautiful women playing Go here ...

Bantari wrote:

EdLee wrote:

longshanks wrote:Assuming it were on topic and not offensive, wouldn't the better question be are there any women playing beautiful Go?

By some measures, that's a more offensive and worse question.

There are all kinds of standards and double standards.
Wasn't there a recent thread about the separate tourneys for women and men ?
The current annual pro qualification tourney in China, for example --
female candidates compete among themselves, separate from the male candidates.

Many interesting and difficult questions. Research needed.

ag1.png

ag2.png

ag3.png

ag4.jpg

ag5.png

ag6.png

What I find interesting is why do you think any of the above is interesting?