Life In 19x19

deja wrote:Interestingly, David Fotland asked these same sorts of questions, with the same sort of rationale about FREE software, on rec.games.go several years ago. He didn't listen to his potential customers then, why would he listen to them now?

Yes, very interesting. I just worked all through that discussion form before the release of MFOG 12 and interpret it differently than you. Fotland apparently did listen (to his customers).

a) People who had bought previous versions did get MFOG 12 at a discounted price.
b) He dropped the "call home" solution to the multiple registrations problem. In effect this left him without a solution* (and people now complaining about that). He even relaxed the "how many computers" but that might be because he's got problems with the registration process (multiple logins on the same machine).

He did ignore some, yes. Well people who say "wouldn't be interested unless free" are NOT potential customers. He made the judgement that not enough potential customers using Macs to justify that effort. The problem of having to reregister when running under an emulator and changing that emulator is related to "b".

LOOK -- this is a "beginners" subsection. As long as you are in double digits you probably don't need to shell out for MFOG 12 as there are less expesnive and there are free applications able to strong enouhg opponetns on a "standard computer" for you to learn from.

Michael


* This is a hard problem (allowing multiple registrations). Perhaps could design an AI app which could run on a server for automated generation of keys (decide whether the request for another key seemed reasonable or reject, sending it to a human for appeal decision). But I don't think there are enough applications being sold on a "run on a reasonable number of YOUR machines" basis to justify writing the app for any single small scale software vendor.

Mike Novack wrote:b) He dropped the "call home" solution to the multiple registrations problem. In effect this left him without a solution* (and people now complaining about that). He even relaxed the "how many computers" but that might be because he's got problems with the registration process (multiple logins on the same machine).

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* This is a hard problem (allowing multiple registrations). Perhaps could design an AI app which could run on a server for automated generation of keys (decide whether the request for another key seemed reasonable or reject, sending it to a human for appeal decision). But I don't think there are enough applications being sold on a "run on a reasonable number of YOUR machines" basis to justify writing the app for any single small scale software vendor.

Seriously? I use _lots_ of applications on my Mac, and try out _lots_ of others, since I review a fair amount of software. I have seen a total of, perhaps, a half-dozen apps that require some sort of activation scheme as is common on Windows. Does he really think that his app is going to be pirated that much that he can't just use a serial number? The whole bit of a human being having to respond so you can use the app is ludicrous.

kirkmc wrote:Does he really think that his app is going to be pirated that much that he can't just use a serial number?

More to the point, does he think that his machine lock-in scheme is going to convert a potential pirate into a customer. Very few I think. But he also loses the customers that don't like that kind of setup.

CarlJung wrote:

kirkmc wrote:Does he really think that his app is going to be pirated that much that he can't just use a serial number?

More to the point, does he think that his machine lock-in scheme is going to convert a potential pirate into a customer. Very few I think. But he also loses the customers that don't like that kind of setup.

Besides, if it was popular enough, it would be reverse engineered so the activation wasn't necessary (by tricking the product it already had been activated). That's how most pirated software that requires activation is handled.

Most DRM systems don't affect pirates, even the insanely upsetting Starforce only lasted a couple of weeks (after which pirates were happily using DRM free software and the purchasers of the legit stuff were having all manner of annoyances). All they hurt is the honest consumer who wants a product that works without unnecessary hassles or overheads.

Mike Novack wrote:

TominNJ wrote:I didn't know it was $90 or I probably wouldn't have asked the question. That is more than a little steep.
Wow...

Just curious. I might have a somewhat different perseoctive since I'm retried from a career making my living doing software plus being old enough to have been around for the original "free software" discussions (when "free" did NOT mean free as in free beer but non restrictive licensing and "software for the price of a book")

So my question --- what DO you think a reasonable price for a software application sold under the conditions....
a) Site license. As many copies as you want running on as many computers as you have. In other words, a family pays this. Very different from other software sold on the basis price is "per copy running" or even "price installed on one machine" (you pay again when you get a new computer)
b) Price is a first time cost. Interim updates are free for the download and entirely new versions, when they come out every few years are about half price.

In other words, instead of simply saying $90 is super steep say what you think a reasonable price would be. Bear in mind that a FREE software application should be considered as costing $5-10 (if software is under the free license must be available to you in source form on "standard medium" not charging more for that than customary for that service and that's what you'd get charged these days for burining to CD and mailing it to you. Yes, somebody MIGHT be willing to supply you with already compiled executables and MIGHT be willing to set up a site from which you could download those but nobody has that obligation.) Also keep in mind that these days a typical hard cover book costs about $20 and a text book around $50. Useful comparison. Perhaps alongside your "I would consider $X a fair price" estimate how much per year you spend on go books.

That's a fair question. $40-45 would be my upper limit if the program does what I expect it to do and it actually works. Too many programs don't. I don't think I'd get enough use out of it to pay more.

I've only been playing Go for a couple months so I can't give you a per year cost for books. I do prefer books to software. I can carry books with me. I can read one during commercials on the tv. Software ties me to one computer (the only one I have) in one room of the house.

Mike Novack wrote:Yes, very interesting. I just worked all through that discussion form before the release of MFOG 12 and interpret it differently than you. Fotland apparently did listen (to his customers).

"Michael", the biggest drawback to MFG for most folks is the price tag - that much is consistent. So every time Fotland asks this question, the answers get ignored. The price was $89.95 in 2008 and it's $89.95 today. The mystery is why he keeps asking this question - what do you think would be a reasonable price - when he has no intention of lowering the price.

deja wrote:"Michael"

I also didn't like his attitude (albeit a common one) that being able to emulate an environment (VMware, wine, etc.) is good enough justification to not actually porting the software to a different platform. Trust me. It is _not_ good enough.

It's almost akin to clothes manufacturers making only one size. After all, if you need a different size, you can just re-sew it to fit, right?

LocoRon wrote:I also didn't like his attitude (albeit a common one) that being able to emulate an environment (VMware, wine, etc.) is good enough justification to not actually porting the software to a different platform. Trust me. It is _not_ good enough.

It's almost akin to clothes manufacturers making only one size. After all, if you need a different size, you can just re-sew it to fit, right?

In his defense he did outline the effort involved to port it. It's a giant task and I believe him.

Depending on how a program is written (and especially how involved its GUI is), it can practically be a complete re-write to port it. Doing 90% more work for 10% more customers is just not worth it. That's one reason why web apps are the way of the future.

There's no webapp that could match Cgoban3.

daniel_the_smith wrote:Depending on how a program is written (and especially how involved its GUI is), it can practically be a complete re-write to port it. Doing 90% more work for 10% more customers is just not worth it. That's one reason why web apps are the way of the future.

Well, probably not. For something like MFG, there's the database of games that couldn't easily be replicated on the web. If you want to add your own games, then it wouldn't work well, and the processor power needed if several people are using the app at the main time would prevent such a thing from working. Google can do it, but small developers can't afford server farms.

kirkmc wrote:

daniel_the_smith wrote:Depending on how a program is written (and especially how involved its GUI is), it can practically be a complete re-write to port it. Doing 90% more work for 10% more customers is just not worth it. That's one reason why web apps are the way of the future.

Well, probably not. For something like MFG, there's the database of games that couldn't easily be replicated on the web. If you want to add your own games, then it wouldn't work well, and the processor power needed if several people are using the app at the main time would prevent such a thing from working. Google can do it, but small developers can't afford server farms.

1. Make web front end.
2. bundle light weight webserver with local install.
3. Open page using default browser (possibly in full screen to get rid of all the irrelevant web toolbars).

I believe it's technically possible. But if it's suitable for rich UI programs is another thing. Perhaps flash would be the easiest way forward. That way you don't have to pay attention to how different browsers choose to implement the web standards and what different quirks they require. I assume flash works more or less the same on every platform since the plugin comes from one single company. That said, perhaps java is an easier way forward if you want a cross platform application with minimal effort.

deja wrote:The mystery is why he keeps asking this question - what do you think would be a reasonable price - when he has no intention of lowering the price.

Did he state that he has no intention of lowering the price? Or is this your conclusion? I didn't read all of the RGG posts. The first two or three pages were enough to remind me clearly why I had stopped following the group a few years ago.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with asking a question and "not listening". I often ask my customers questions and consider their input, but that doesn't mean that I always make adjustments based on their feedback. It's good to know what customers think, and what their perspective is like, and I (we, the company I work for) take the responses into account, but it's rare that there are immediate responses. Mostly, it just helps with future developments and directions. Often, customers have no real understanding of the vendor's/company's realities, but the feedback is still valuable.

As for MFOG's price, well, I paid it, both for v11 and v12, because to me the software was and is worth it (it needs a more modern interface, though -- SmartGo does better in that way). Sure, I would have preferred to pay less, but I would also prefer to pay less for rent, books, food and everything else I have to spend money on. I also enjoy "free" software for the many benefits of open source. In fact, a lot of my standard software is open source and multi-platform.

On the flipside, I do understand why developers may not want to open source their software. While "free as in speech" doesn't necessarily or actually equal "free as in beer", for many people there is no difference between the two. If you make your living, at least in part, from a niche software product, going open source may just not be a viable option. In many cases, open software products are either hobby/community projects or they have funding and sponsoring.

Also, lowering the price to, say, thirty dollars would mean that David would have to sell three times as many copies to make the same money. Not as easy, I know, since it would mean more time spent on support, but also result in more recommendations. This may be one of the questions that David is pondering, and if it is, I could understand why he repeatedly asked the "fair price" question (if he did), especially if it's done between longer periods of time. The economical situation is always in flux.

Anyway, the price worked for me and I am a satisfied user of MFoG and SmartGo. Whenever I had a question for David and emailed in, I received a prompt response, so I have no complaints. He seems to be more of a programmer type than a "people's person", but that's quite common. (Or maybe I just notice it, being a community manager among programmers at work!) The support certainly has been better than what I sometimes get from other developers, even much bigger ones that charge the same or significantly more for their products.

Lastly, part of the reason why I didn't mind the price is that I wanted to support the development of Go software. If a market is commercially attractive, it often drives innovation and draws new talent and also money. Chess is a good example for that. It would help to make Go more popular and known outside of the small circle of players in the "west" -- most of which are intellectuals or people who are philosophically inclined.

Mivo wrote:Did he...

All reasonable points. I also bought MFG (see my earlier post) so at some level thought it was worth it, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I use it every day and would feel naked without it. Nevertheless, it's "odd" that he continually asks this same question and continually keeps the price at $89.95. If I remember correctly, He also asked this question on GD and the answers he got were, again, around $50. So at some point you begin to see that the question is not genuine but rhetorical.