Hi,
I do basically the same except that I don't imagine stones, I just "follow the stairs".
Breaker : my ladder is broken if an enemy stone lies on the stairs, within a "step" of the stair, or touches a stair diagonally.
Locker : my ladder reworks if a friendly stone lies on the stairs or within a "step" of the stairs. If it touches a stair diagonally, however, it doesn't lock the ladder, but can be used do offset the stairs one unit in its direction, if you see what I mean.
If there are several close stones in the path, I do as Solomon. I follow the stairs, then, as I'm approaching the complicated zone, I imagine the stones again.
How I Read Ladders
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:39 pm
by Bonobo
I LOLed
xed_over wrote:haha... of course it also helps if you keep the lines on their proper course
[..]
LOL, in my games I always hallucinate this when I play White:
Forgive me for replying twice in a row but this is a little bit more serious than my last comment
Somewhere I read:
A ladder is six lines wide.
I.e.: two stones inside the ladder, the two stones on both sides of the ladder, plus the points just next to the latter ones. Any stone on any of these six points can change everything, depending on its colour.
I found this quite helpful, for now I can do some “fuzzy” reading, like “imagine a hand’s width moving along that diagonal line”, and only if there is a stone in that area I need to TRY to read. Which, of course, is usually in vain.
________
And a little more off-topic:
In one of my former lives I used to play a lot of chess; not on a high level, but passionately. There I learnt to watch not only the board but also the opponent and their subtle movements, eyes, and mimics; and this thread reminded me of a Real Life game I lost a few years ago against a ten or twelve year old boy (at the “Rahlstedter Tengen” tournament in Hamburg, Germany). During that game I noticed several times how he, just slightly but rhythmically and quickly, turned his head sidewards: left, right, left, right … while his eyes zigzagged across the board. Assuming that I’d probably have forgotten after the game, I couldn’t help telling him right in the game how he was, unknowingly, giving me hints about his thoughts about the game, and that it would perhaps be a good idea for his following games to hold his head so that his opponents couldn't directly watch the zigzag of his eyes. He was thankful for this feedback because he had been totally unaware of the fact that the opponent could watch other things than just the development on the board.
I admit that I also use such things for deceit — in Real Life games I sometimes turn my head to the left while my eyes look to the right (an unorthodox application of “Make a Feint to the East while Attacking in the West” ), or I rest my head on my hands so that the hands shade my eyes when I need to read a ladder.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:54 pm
by jeromie
schawipp wrote:For long ladders I start with imaginating only the inner stones, which is rather easy (even with my limited capacity ) . Only when they get close to other stones I start also adding the surrounding stones in my imagination. In your example I "see" it like follows:
I do something like this. It helped me a lot when I realized I could derive the position of the outer stones by the flow of the inner stones. In the above example, if the inner stones are moving up then there was an outer stone to the right; if it is moving right there was an outer stone on the top. When I get into a tricky part, I can stop looking at the inner stones and see ALL of the stones.
I think all of these "tricks" (including mine) demonstrate that we can improve ladder reading in two ways: by improving memory/visualization via practice or reducing the number of items we are storing in our head at any one time. Both methods are useful in a game, but the first is certainly what Kageyama had in mind.
Kirby, the book you linked looked interesting. I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but do you have a preferred method for ordering from amazon.co.jp?
Addendum: Does anyone know if there is a legal way to order Japanese Kindle books to be sent to my Kindle?
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:08 pm
by Bill Spight
jeromie wrote:
I do something like this. It helped me a lot when I realized I could derive the position of the outer stones by the flow of the inner stones.
I find it interesting that some people infer the position of the outer stones from inner stones, when I, and perhaps macelee, infer the position of the inner stones from the outer stones.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:56 pm
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:
I find it interesting that some people infer the position of the outer stones from inner stones, when I, and perhaps macelee, infer the position of the inner stones from the outer stones.
In my case, I think I change perspectives, depending on what color I'm playing. If I'm the one that could potentially get captured, I see from perspective of inner stones (those are *my* stones). If I'm the one that's trying to capture, I see from the perspective of the outside.
Either way, I usually "visualize" both inside and outside.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:59 am
by daal
Bill Spight wrote:
$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
We're done.
I don't think so.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:39 am
by tchan001
What I really hate are colliding ladders that rush towards each other.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:03 am
by Bill Spight
daal wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
We're done.
I don't think so.
$$B Can Black capture? Yes!
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O B . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X W W B . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . B W W B . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W B B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B W X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------
[go]$$B Can Black capture? Yes!
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O B . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X W W B . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . B W W B . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . B W W B . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B W B B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B W X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Or was that a joke?
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:01 am
by daal
Bill Spight wrote:
daal wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:We're done.
I don't think so.
Or was that a joke?
$$B Can Black capture my heart?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | X O X . . X O X . . X O X |
$$ | X O X . . . X . . . X O X |
$$ | X O O X . . , . . X O O X |
$$ | . X O O X . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------
[go]$$B Can Black capture my heart?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O X X O O O X X O O X |
$$ | X O X . . X O X . . X O X |
$$ | X O X . . . X . . . X O X |
$$ | X O O X . . , . . X O O X |
$$ | . X O O X . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Whether we're done depends on what one sees as the objective of the problem.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:52 am
by OtakuViking
I stubbornly follow the spots with my eyes, playing it out in my mind. Can be hard for me to visualize stones there, but just looking at the spots as I play out the ladder sequence in my mind is enough. Working with the Gokyo Shumyo ladder problems has helped me alot in this regard. It's not easy, but it's doable. I don't visualize them in colour, but invisible stones are better than no stones. I do this for when there's no other stones around. When other stones like potential ladder breakers start to appear, I focus harder to make sure I visualize the outer stones and their liberties to avoid traps.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:55 am
by tapir
I used to silently talk myself through the moves (Black, White, Black, White). It is very easy to get lost that way. I now visualise Black and White for usually better results.. When I lack vision, I may end up "mentally pointing" at the board rhythmically (da-dap___da-dap___).
If you want something of a shortcut while still doing the reading, you can read until tengen and treat it as equivalent to the opposite corner star point.
This is something that has puzzled me for a long time. In Lessons In The Fundamentals Of Go, Kageyama recommends reading out ladders, and not taking shortcuts. I have taken the advice to heart, but find it hard to this day.
One thing that puzzles me is what it's like reading out a ladder. Do you see the stones on the board? Or do you look at spots on the board with a sort of "White, Black, White, Black, White, Black..." series in your head? Or something different?
I find that I can only see the stones for very short ladders, after which they get fuzzy. Below you'll see my limit, hidden so that you can think about it yourself.
I see the stones to or almost instantaneously, and after that point, I start slowing down and alternating, with no real picture in my head.
As a result, I find long ladders, spiral ladders and so on extremely hard and slow to read. I'm especially prone to having to start over when I reach a bend or an opposing stone. Even if I haven't misplaced my series of moves, which is easy to do when you're just moving your eyes and saying "White, Black...", I may not have a clear picture of which spaces are liberties.
Am I doing this wrong? What it is like when you read a ladder? Did you have to overcome the problems I'm describing, and if so, how did you do it?
$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Takes me around 25-30 seconds to read that out.
Just keep trying to visualize it. It will take few months of solving tsumegos but then eventually you don't even realize that your reading has improved.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:55 am
by skydyr
Bill Spight wrote:
I take this kind of advice not to be about reading ladders per se, but about developing your visualization skills.
I agree with this completely. Kageyama is talking directly about ladders, but what he is really saying is that you need to learn to visualize stones in order to read properly, because without it you're just playing best guesses. The reason he says ladders specifically is because there are no branching variations to keep track of, so you are practicing one skill only, with a clearly defined start and end. The fact that they come up frequently in play is an added bonus. You'll notice that he's explicitly telling you to eschew crutches, because speed isn't the thing to practice, it's visualization.
If he instead said it more generally, it would to apply to joseki and other things as well. In that case you would also have to be generating candidate moves and keeping track of different variations, which are separate skills (though also worth practicing).
The other thing that he's saying implicitly is that you should know if a move works or not before you play it, and if it doesn't work, you shouldn't play it hoping it will.
Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:36 pm
by Bill Spight
skydyr wrote:The other thing that he's saying implicitly is that you should know if a move works or not before you play it, and if it doesn't work, you shouldn't play it hoping it will.
or 
almost instantaneously, and after that point, I start slowing down and alternating, with no real picture in my head.