Life In 19x19

ok, it sounds like a few people did not actually read the link, before jumping to the wrong conclusions.

eurogopro.org wrote:The European Professional Go Organisation will run a European Professional Go League, a year long competion that provides professional status for 12 top european players every year.

It's a pity, but EGF makes [=does] nothing for top players. And the situation in Europe is very bad, after losing main sponsors.

Yes, but some of us suspect that the antics and demands of some "top" players helped lose the sponsorship. And, anyway, what do top players do for the EGF membership?

But leaving that aside, it's time for tough love, or a reality check. To get some perspective, look back and imagine the Nihon Ki-in, say, trying to form itself by demanding that Japanese amateurs defer to them, pay them, organise events for them and find sponsors for them. In fact, the Nihon Ki-in professionals did all the leg work themselves, and took decades to turn it into something big.

The good news, I think, is that the European wannabe pros appear to have realised at long last that they have to take the same route. I wish them every success on their journey. By going it alone they have made the most important step. But they must stay somewhat aloof from the amateur world and must acquire the self confidence to sell their product. In 2011, for example, they would have every right to sell their attendance at the EGC for however much they can negotiate. I would also support them if they tried to convince international tournament sponsors such as Fujitsu that all European places in their events should go only to European pros.

However, I think the European pros also need to rid themselves of the notion that professional go is all about competing in tournaments. That's fine as an ideal, but if we look at how professional go developed in Japan in the 20th century, there were VERY few tournaments initially. A pro was often lucky to get one game a fortnight. Even today, many don't manage even one tournament game a week. Instead, even top pros have made a living by cultivating individual patrons and either playing exhibition games for them or giving teaching games. Other activities they are not too proud to undertake include writing or ghostwriting books, doing newspaper commentaries, teaching beginners in factories, or teaching budding pros. So far as I can see, not too many of the top Europeans have condescended to write books, or even articles for their own associations' journals, let alone undertake the other activities. Many just seem to want to hang around while amateurs organise tournaments for them. Their behaviour seems in sharp contrast to that of Oriental pros who have exercised their profession in the USA.

I know that's a probably unwelcome message for some, and the fact that even many Korean pros are currently living the nightmare of what happens when it doesn't work out must make it doubly depressing. But for those who don't want to wait around, they have one slice of fortune - it is possible to become a pro in an Oriental country.

Of course, if it doesn't work out here, the budding pros should be welcomed back into the amateur ranks - but on the same basis as every other EGF member.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Of course, if it doesn't work out here, the budding pros should be welcomed back into the amateur ranks - but on the same basis as every other EGF member.

Are the tournaments of the EGF open to pros or only amateurs? If it's the latter, does that mean these players can no longer compete in the EGC or other major tournaments? I find this whole thing a bit confusing - the "pro" term, as I mentioned above, is a bit amorphous.

Li Kao wrote:But unless there is the money to support it you shouldn't call it professional.

If an amateur can support himself teaching go, is he a pro?

this announcement says exactly nothing. there is only the number 12 and a year european professional mentioned. a LEAGUE is a seperate system much like dinerchteins insei league. It doesnt say anything beneficial to actually being a european professional except for the name. are there going to be ranks which you can earn? are there special events for those who wish to become professional? its all vague....

xed_over wrote:http://eurogopro.org/opening.html

"We believe that the breakthrough we need to reach the same level as the Orient is to form an organisation which allows Europeans access to high level playing conditions together with a perfect environment for studying. We hope that European Go fans will see the rise of new European stars who can compete on even terms with the world's top players."

I have been saying for a very long time that this is true and this is what needs to happen in America as well as Europe.

I hope they succeed wildly!

kirkmc wrote:Yea, the whole concept of a "pro" in go is quite odd, and I don't think it translates very well. What exactly is this group going to do? Will there be regular face-to-face games? Or will the games be held online? 12 players in a league means a lot of games, and I can't imagine them all getting together often; the cost of travel alone would be enough to require a fair amount of sponsorship.

A pro is what you make of it.

1) Is it the fact that you support yourself (exclusively?) from Go? In this case, playing strength is only tangential, although certainly helpful.
2) Is it the fact that you are accredited by some 'Pro' organization and that's it? As long as the standards are high and strong, i see no problem.
3) Is it something that follows exactly the 'Eastern' model - accreditation, then fixed salary, possibly based on rank, retirement plan, etc. just for breathing?

Each of the above might be a good definition, or all of the above, and more. Each is used frequently in real life, except maybe #3 which does not happen that often. I think the EuroPro is heading for #2. And more power to them, I say!

#3 would be nice, but I don't think we're there yet. Not even sure if that's a good system. From what breakfast said - they are thinking about re-thinking it in Korea already...

kirkmc wrote:Are the tournaments of the EGF open to pros or only amateurs? If it's the latter, does that mean these players can no longer compete in the EGC or other major tournaments? I find this whole thing a bit confusing - the "pro" term, as I mentioned above, is a bit amorphous.

It seems like the EGC happily accepts pros--Taranu and Dinerstein are both playing. The one big tournament that would almost certainly be off limits, though, is the World Amateur. The players going the pro route certainly deserve respect for giving up that in their quest for better things.

pwaldron wrote:

kirkmc wrote:Are the tournaments of the EGF open to pros or only amateurs? If it's the latter, does that mean these players can no longer compete in the EGC or other major tournaments? I find this whole thing a bit confusing - the "pro" term, as I mentioned above, is a bit amorphous.

It seems like the EGC happily accepts pros--Taranu and Dinerstein are both playing. The one big tournament that would almost certainly be off limits, though, is the World Amateur. The players going the pro route certainly deserve respect for giving up that in their quest for better things.

Taranu and Dinerstein are not allowed to play there anyway,because they are already "pro"

My opinion about the idea:
I think the idea of a EuroPro system is nice. They are taking the first steps now, so you can't expect everything to have been worked out in great detail. I imagine part will also be worked out once things get under way, allowing them to learn for mishaps/mistakes and improve the system. This will not happen over night.
They need to avoid trying come up with the "perfect" system before actually starting this. learning from experience and mistakes work mch more efficient.
you don't learn to play a perfect game of go by just studying. you need to play, get experience and sometimes lose, to just come back stronger.

If they would broughtcast/relay games online that would be nice. I would personally love to see some high level players play with intermediate time settings. the high dans on KGS play mostly (messy/ not very serious) blitz games, and the EGF and AGA games that are relayed take way too long.
But this EuroPro system could be much more than just a league system.

I wish them good luck.

freegame wrote: and the EGF and AGA games that are relayed take way too long.

heh... have you never watched a Honinbo, Tengen or other big pro match? These are even longer, often 6-8 hours for each player

From the signing list:

Ilia Shikshin 7d
Cristian Pop 7d
Rob van Zeijst 7d
Csaba Mero 6d
Benjamin Teuber 6d
Cornel Burzo 6d
Ondrej Silt 6d
Pal Balogh 6d

All amateurs, most of whom would participate in the WAGC or have already done so. Of course not all of them would make the cut for the top 12, several of them would.

@freegame, look in the dutch windmill on kgs. im hosting the dutch elite league, high level online games with long timesetting.

i personally think online leagues and tournaments should be allowed for the EGF, that way games played online would become way more serious

@ stalkor: I know about your dutch elite league. and I might watch a couple of games. but more because a couple of people I know very well play in it than because of the strength of the players. of course they are stronger than I am, but with most there is still a big gab to the European top players.

With high level players I meant KGS [7d] and stronger. The dutch elite league is certainty a very interesting league, but there are only very few people in it who could manage a solid [7d] or higher. In fact I'm not far from being allowed to play in this dutch elite league myself . The EuroPro league would all be KGS [7d] and stronger.

i personally think online leagues and tournaments should be allowed for the EGF, that way games played online would become way more serious

This would be a disaster. It is way to easy to cheat online in many different ways.

I think we're all overlooking a major question: now that this has been announced, will we post news about it to the EGF forum or the Professional forum?

breakfast wrote:Weakest members in these 12 will lose pro status, so the number of professionals will be unchanged: only 12 every year. The situation in Japan is completely different.
In Korea they also think in direction of removing pro status from weak professionals

The only problem I think about that is that if it's possible to lose your pro status, people will not consider it a viable career. What would someone do if, they became a pro at 16, then 20 years later they lost their pro status? If they didn't have much money their life would be over at 36.

This is just my unqualified opinion, but I think it is better to make the test exceedingly difficult and only admit 1 or 2 people a year, than it is to have 12 people at any one time.