How did you get to your current rank?

[dfan]

I think it is really hard to guess what your rank is until you play humans. It is certainly possible that you are 4k, but playing engines is a really loose way to judge it. When you do finally play people, you will definitely find that they have a wider range of style than engines (even though you play multiple engines), and it will likely take some time to adjust.

[Babelardus]

I think it is really hard to guess what your rank is until you play humans. It is certainly possible that you are 4k, but playing engines is a really loose way to judge it. When you do finally play people, you will definitely find that they have a wider range of style than engines (even though you play multiple engines), and it will likely take some time to adjust.

You're probably right. As I don't know the strength of Pachi, Fuego, and Leela yet, I'll have to run some matches between them and other engines to determine what their relative strength is. Then I'll have three more engines to play. Cosumi and Aya are about a stone weaker than GNU Go on level 10; I'm using GNU Go at level 10 = 5K as a benchmark.

The main reason why I didn't register at any of the Go servers yet is because I intensely dislike any form of competition or even having to prove that I can do something, since the time I left high school. Registering at KGS or another Go server would, by definition, mean proving that I'm better than people at a certain rank, and thus competition.

Also, I *HATE* being in the middle when starting out with something. Don't ask me why, it just is. Now I feel I have to wait with registering until I'm relatively sure I can reach and hold a 1k or 1d rank very quickly. Then I'll be either at the top of the kyu players, or at the bottom of the dan players.

Maybe, because of that, I should have registered four years ago. Maybe I'll register and run the bot ladder first (like I did while playing Arimaa), to obtain some sort of semi-official KGS rank.

[dfan]

I think it is really hard to guess what your rank is until you play humans. It is certainly possible that you are 4k, but playing engines is a really loose way to judge it. When you do finally play people, you will definitely find that they have a wider range of style than engines (even though you play multiple engines), and it will likely take some time to adjust.

You're probably right. As I don't know the strength of Pachi, Fuego, and Leela yet, I'll have to run some matches between them and other engines to determine what their relative strength is. Then I'll have three more engines to play.

One of my points was that "strength" is not really a one-dimensional scale (like, say, someone's speed in running a 5K race would be), so even if you decide that engine X is 4k and you beat it 50% of the time, that is only loose evidence that you would perform at a 4k level against humans.

But if you hate playing humans, I don't mean to yell at you for not doing so! Do whatever gives you the most enjoyment. I think you will find though, that just as on this forum, we are all in this together, and everyone wants to help each other get stronger; it's not about proving that you are better than other people. (In this respect I think the go community is friendlier than the chess community, in general.)

Also, I *HATE* being in the middle when starting out with something. Don't ask me why, it just is. Now I feel I have to wait with registering until I'm relatively sure I can reach and hold a 1k or 1d rank very quickly. Then I'll be either at the top of the kyu players, or at the bottom of the dan players.

I am totally like this myself so I fully understand. That said, I think that the level at which you have leapfrogged the beginners and can feel proud of yourself is 10k, not 1d.

I don't know anyone who has gotten to 1d without playing people, but if you can, that would be an interesting experiment!

[DrStraw]

The main reason why I didn't register at any of the Go servers yet is because I intensely dislike any form of competition or even having to prove that I can do something, since the time I left high school. Registering at KGS or another Go server would, by definition, mean proving that I'm better than people at a certain rank, and thus competition.

I have NEVER felt that on any go server. I play to enjoy the game and learn. If I win it is nice, if I lose it is no big deal. What is important is that I enjoyed it and if I also learn one new thing a game (which I no longer do at my level) then it is worth it.

I also do not think it possible to claim any rank until it is earned against humans.

[Anzu]

Maybe, as I said in an earlier thread, I should finally consider registering on KGS/IGS, to see where I fall within the rankings... but I *HATE* competition. I play Go to become stronger; but not to prove that I'm stronger than others.

You can look at it not as a competition, but two people painting a picture together.

[Majordomo]

I started playing in December / January - and got completely sucked into this game in no time by watching youtube videos, reading on Sensei's library (basically reading stuff almost at random) - not sure how much it all helped in terms of my strength but it helped keep my interest and I also played quite a bit of 9x9 against GnuGo since I could do so with just a minute available.

Then I actually started playing quite a bit online after realising that playing in person only was a futile way to progress (No one nearby shared my enthusiasm). And since I was home on leave with my daughter for three months well - whenever she slept I played or read or did puzzles to try to improve - and when I started work again I kept at it for the most part - I don't play that often, a couple of games a week - but I've compensated with going harder on puzzles and playing over pro games and stuff so.

I've always been rather fiercely competitive - but that has really been a hinderance for me with Go, since I so desperately want to be better than what I am I've at times been reluctant to play at all (this only holds true for online games for some reason, when playing face to face I have none of that same tension / anxiety) but I'm working on that so it has gotten better. I'm kind of happy with my improvement even though I've constantly felt that I want it to be faster (though I do realise it will only slow down at this stage) - but it helps to tell myself that I'll never actually be "good" at this game so I can take the time, it's just a hobby (a strange, interesting yet occasionally stressful hobby) heh. So since Go provides an endless amount of things to be fascinated about, to a level that Chess never quite reached for me, I'm just keeping at it and trying not to let myself become to obsessed with rank and progress.

As of today I've played 167 games of 19x19 Go against real opponents and it looks like I can hold 4k on KGS at the moment - In addition I've probably played 40 something 9x9 & 13x13 games against real opponents and hundreds of AI 9x9s.

[Babelardus]

One of my points was that "strength" is not really a one-dimensional scale (like, say, someone's speed in running a 5K race would be), so even if you decide that engine X is 4k and you beat it 50% of the time, that is only loose evidence that you would perform at a 4k level against humans.

While I agree that my estimate will probably be very loose, I fortunately don't just 'decide' how strong an engine is; the rankings I'm using for Aya and GNU Go are their actual KGS rankings, and I determine the ranking of other engines (on my computer) by matching them against Aya and/or GNU Go.

But if you hate playing humans, I don't mean to yell at you for not doing so! Do whatever gives you the most enjoyment.

I don't hate playing humans... I dislike competition, and by definition, rated games. Maybe I should just get over that and play some games, and que sera sera...

I am totally like this myself so I fully understand. That said, I think that the level at which you have leapfrogged the beginners and can feel proud of yourself is 10k, not 1d.

I don't know anyone who has gotten to 1d without playing people, but if you can, that would be an interesting experiment!

I don't think I can do it; reach 1d without help and without playing people. Maybe I could, but not within a normal amount of time.

Until recently I was copying what I saw in professional games, and I was then also able to reason out why that worked. For the next step in improvement, I don't have the necessary knowledge and experience to reason out why techniques work or not, and thus I can't use them effectively. Just copying them without knowing why is not good enough.

That's the reason why I finally registered here, after two years of lurking, and asked for some game reviews, and it did gain me four stones, as I can now effectively beat engines on an even game, where I previously needed 2-4 stones of handicap.

You can look at it not as a competition, but two people painting a picture together.

I like that suggestion.

[dfan]

One of my points was that "strength" is not really a one-dimensional scale (like, say, someone's speed in running a 5K race would be), so even if you decide that engine X is 4k and you beat it 50% of the time, that is only loose evidence that you would perform at a 4k level against humans.

While I agree that my estimate will probably be very loose, I fortunately don't just 'decide' how strong an engine is; the rankings I'm using for Aya and GNU Go are their actual KGS rankings, and I determine the ranking of other engines (on my computer) by matching them against Aya and/or GNU Go.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you personally pulled the rank 4k out thin air (nor that anyone else did), but I could see how it could be read that way.

I wrote a bunch more here and then deleted it because I think I have already said all of it before. I do wish you luck with your go journey, and you should do whatever brings you the most enjoyment!

[Babelardus]

I wrote a bunch more here and then deleted it because I think I have already said all of it before. I do wish you luck with your go journey, and you should do whatever brings you the most enjoyment!

Thanks. Someday, when I think I'll be ready to play rated games, I'll register at one or more of the Go servers.

[Majordomo]

In KGS you can set your rank to - (aka no rank) and create games or join games that aren't ranked. I think for many that can be a great way to not get caught up in the competitive aspect of it (but it'd give you an idea about your rank). While I can't really understand not being competitive I can very much identify with what you said about not wanting to start out as "bad" or in the middle - for instance I like to write, but I'm not yet to the point where I'm comfortable showing what I've written because I can tell it's bad, so I want to keep writing for myself until I'm happy enough with my level that I'd be comfortable with others reading it (but I still like to write, even if just for myself). I've tried to not have that mindset for my Go though, and instead I've just accepted that whatever rank I can realistically achieve is still very bad (4k or 4d and you'll still get beat by a 12 year old) - but by playing others I'll get to partake in others ideas and thoughts that will help me explore and understand the game better (aka improve). Had I just been playing computers I think I would have stopped quickly, or never gone beyond 9x9 Go (which to me is closer to Chess than 19x19 if I'm being somewhat hyperbolic). It's cool to see so many different ways to approach and enjoy the game though.

[Babelardus]

In KGS you can set your rank to - ...

KGS has a teaching ladder.

I'll probably go there. I like teaching (I taught jiu-jitsu and hapkido as an assistant trainer, and photography in the past), even if it's only explaining rules and basic moves to complete beginners. I can then play teaching games against stronger players, fully expecting to lose them, but being told *why*.

As Sai from Hikaru No Go would have said: "Ikimasho! Ikimashooouuu!"

I think the teaching ladder might be the perfect way to get into the online Go scene without jumping right into the middle of a competition.

[/quote]While I can't really understand not being competitive I can very much identify with what you said about not wanting to start out as "bad" or in the middle - for instance I like to write, but I'm not yet to the point where I'm comfortable showing what I've written because I can tell it's bad, so I want to keep writing for myself until I'm happy enough with my level that I'd be comfortable with others reading it (but I still like to write, even if just for myself).[/quote]

Tell me about it. I wrote a few short stories, but only ever put one on the internet, and that was part of a teaching/review setup I helped organize. Several people started writing a story, and we'd put the works in progress online to critique.

What genre do you write in? In my case, it's fantasy.

I've tried to not have that mindset for my Go though, and instead I've just accepted that whatever rank I can realistically achieve is still very bad (4k or 4d and you'll still get beat by a 12 year old)

That doesn't matter to me. The only thing I want is to achieve a consistent strength comparable to a 1 dan on KGS/IGS or so. Then I am (at least in my mind) out of the beginner stage, just like when reaching black belt in a martial arts.

but by playing others I'll get to partake in others ideas and thoughts that will help me explore and understand the game better (aka improve). Had I just been playing computers I think I would have stopped quickly...

Apart from playing online, the computer is my only option.

My closest Go Club plays only once a week, on wednesday, in the side-room of a bar, between 21:00 and 00:00. The first (and last) bus departs at 0:25 there, and I'll get home at around 1:00. That's impossible. I have to get up at 6:30 to go to work the next day.

[DrStraw]

I really think that you have the wrong attitude to this game and that you have very little chance of ever getting very strong. You concentrate too much on not losing and on being shodan. Neither of these is appropriate.

Losing is the only way to learn. I tell my students that if they never make a mistake they will never learn anything. Just play the game and enjoy it. Rank is totally irrelevant, although I understand that in today's society, which erroneously emphasizes success, that it hard to accept defeat while learning.

I can assure you that if you forget about rank and just concentrate on playing you will reach shodan much more quickly.

[EdLee]

Losing is the only way to learn.

Not true; losing is one way to learn,
and while it is important, it's definitely not the only way.

I tell my students that if they never make a mistake they will never learn anything.

Also not true. This came from over-generalization.
( There's a logic fallacy in there somewhere. )
If we never make a mistake, we miss out on lessons that can only be learned from those mistakes.
However, it doesn't mean we don't learn anything.
The knowledge space is vast:
There are still plenty of valuable lessons to learn, without the losses.
That's why it's beneficial to review lost games as well as won games --
our mistakes are present in both.

[Babelardus]

I really think that you have the wrong attitude to this game and that you have very little chance of ever getting very strong.

I disagree that I have no chance of ever becoming very strong. This topic led me to do this personality test, with the following result:

Personality: INTJ: Architect, Mastermind

test.png (22.39 KiB) Viewed 16357 times

After reading this explanation and that text, my way of trying to learn Go fits exactly as would be expected with this personality type... with all the advantages (studying very fast, learning everything there is to learn, etc), but also with all the pitfalls (learning everything there is to learn, and then never using it because one may be afraid that it's 'not good enough').

You concentrate too much on not losing and on being shodan. Neither of these is appropriate.

You are right there. It's a trait of the INTJ personality: only start doing something if you think your knowledge about the subject is 'good enough', and for me, in Go, that point is 1 dan. Trying to know everything beforehand often works very well, but for Go, maybe not so much.

The conclusion of this is that I should alter course and not try to learn and discover everything myself because it will take too much time. I've decided to register at KGS, and then play the bots there until I start losing and my rank stabilizes, to prevent sandbagging as much as possible. Then I'll switch to playing people around that rank.

[dfan]

You are right there. It's a trait of the INTJ personality: only start doing something if you think your knowledge about the subject is 'good enough', and for me, in Go, that point is 1 dan. Trying to know everything beforehand often works very well, but for Go, maybe not so much.

Ha, I'm the same way about most subjects (games included), and always get pegged as an INTJ as well (yes, I know, Myers-Briggs is silly, I take these tests for entertainment purposes only). "Luckily" for me, I decided that point was 10 kyu.