Lee Sedol Submits Resignation Letter to Korean Pro Go Assn.

[Uberdude]

Does he pay another cut of his winnings to the Hankuk Kiwon?

[ez4u]

Perhaps he wanted a cap, or it to only apply to games in Korea?

That is a good point. I understand he needs to pay a percentage of his income to the association as an obligation. On the other hand, there is a cap to the benefit he could enjoy from the association when he reaches retirement. So he is effectively subsidize other players, which may appear quite unfair.

I do not know the details, but it could easily be fair if Lee agreed to proportional fees at the beginning of his career. You have a cohort of young pros who face an uncertain future. A setup by which they pool a certain percentage of their winnings for retirement, most of which will be paid by the big winners, is fair, as they do not know who those winners will be. Without such guarantees it would be more difficult to get young people to become pros.

Edit: Let me underscore what everybody knows. Baduk is one of those professions where the monetary payoff for differences in ability is not proportional to those differences, but is concentrated at the top. The winnings of the average pro (the median) is significantly less than the average winnings (the mean).

There are a couple of statements here that I find questionable.

- First, that players voluntarily agree to something when they turn pro. Of course the power is not evenly distributed and there is nothing voluntary about the agreement. I don't recall how old Lee Sedol was when he qualified but he was a kid. The old lags at the pro association said, "Congratulations kid. Now sign right here if you really want to be a pro!"

- Second, that there is a big random mixer run by the old, weak pros that takes in thousands of kids, trains them for free, and discovers along the way who has talent. Nonsense! The Go schools in Korea are commercial. Parents pay for their kids to attend in hopes that they can win through. In most cases it is quickly apparent who has talent and who doesn't. No one is giving away their work without compensation. And generally I imagine the parents want the best pros to train their kids rather than the also rans.

- Monetary payoff for differences in ability is not proportional to those differences? (Frankly this is a shocking statement coming from Bill!) The exact opposite is the case. The proportions are set out in writing for each and every tournament (note the proportions are not linear). However, the measurement of ability is done via winners and losers in head to head competition within each tournament. It is not done through some after-the-fact statistical aggregation of results and therefore the monetary payoff is not proportional to such alternative measures. It would be interesting to see a list of professions where people think that monetary payoffs are in linear proportion to ability - I can't think of any.

Just to be clear, I think Lee Sedol is a jerk to act this way. It is nothing new in his case. He has played the role of prima donna throughout his career. But we can quickly match him with a list of similar figures from other sports and entertainment industries, really from all walks of life. So I will continue to enjoy his Go and continue to shake my head at his behavior away from the board.

[Kirby]

Does he pay another cut of his winnings to the Hankuk Kiwon?

I'm not sure on the specifics of what he pays to the Hankuk Kiwon.

Also, somewhat related, Lee Sedol mentioned the possibility of starting up a new association to replace this one. Other pros, however, seem hesitant to leave the existing association.

In other news [1], Lee Sedol just won the finals of the Maxim Coffee Cup, and the head of this organization he wants to quit from was there at the award ceremony. They appear to be on friendly terms, and are planning on having dinner together. The head of that association says he plans to discuss Lee Sedol's retirement letter with Lee Sedol. Regarding Lee Sedol's win, Lee Sedol was asked about whether his loss to AlphaGo had put pressure on him. Lee Sedol replied that in the end, many supported him, and thanks to that support, he was able to win the title.

He promised from now on to "work harder to play awesome/cool baduk".

[1] http://www.newsis.com/ar_detail/view.ht ... &pID=10500

[Magicwand]

Lee pays portion of all his winning to hanguk kiwon.

for those go players who think 3~5 % is not much... please send 3% of your earning to my bank account.
Korean baduk association is private organization (gathering is better term because they don't do anything) started by few professionals long time ago.
now number of professionals are over 300 and money collected are increasing and used to pay few who claim that they work hard to promote baduk.
Lee tried to change that culture but was not successful. Now he is executing what he planned for long time. The sole purpose of his action is to change that corrupt culture.

[admin] Political comment removed. -JB [/admin]

[Uberdude]

for those go player who think 3~5 % is not much... please send 3% of your earning to my bank account.

Sure, if you promise to give me a pension of £26k per year when I retire!* That's a much better deal than my current pension/tax arrangements.

*Is that what this cut of winnings funds? I still need a lot more clarification before reaching a conclusion here.

[admin] Quoted political comment removed. -JB [/admin]

[wineandgolover]

[admin] Political comment removed. -JB [/admin]...

I suspect both politics and personal attacks are prohibited here, and you managed both in four words. That's somewhat impressive!

[Uberdude]

So a little clarification from yesterdays AGA stream with Myungwan Kim: this Korean Go Professionals Association and the Hankuk Kiwon (aka KBA) are different things, though there may be some relationship/affiliation between them (perhaps a bit like the English Football Association which organises the game in England, and the Professional Footballers' Association which is the players' union, headed by the massively over-paid Gordon Taylor). Myungwan said the Korean Go Professionals Association says you need to be a member of it to play in KBA organised tournaments, but the KBA does not say this. So Lee is basically calling their bluff. I don't know if any of this 5% cut is passed from the KPA to to KBA, if players get a pension (or other benefits such as health insurance) from either or both organisations.

[ez4u]

Maybe I should not be calling Lee Sedol a jerk, but it seems that he is always acting by (and for) himself alone. How do the rest of the top Korean players come into this? Is there any general dissatisfaction out there?

The parallel from U.S. history would seem to be the split in professional golf that created the PGA TOUR back in the 60's. But there a concerted effort by and on behalf of the leading tour pros had enough muscle to make things happen. Can Lee Sedol do it by himself?

The Nihon Kiin in Japan presents a similar problem to my eye. As an association, it represents the interests of the average member (pro) rather than those most visible and interesting to fans. It has not been able to make much progress at reducing the overhang of also rans that ballooned during the 80's.

[Joaz Banbeck]

IMHO, the best strategy for Lee would be to start a competing association with no or lower fees.

This leaves the KBA in a bind. If they recognize the new association, then they have to compete with it for members in an open market. If they don't recognize it, they are effectively claiming a monopoly. ( I don't know what South Korean law is on monopolies, but I suspect that they have something like most industrialized countries. )


There are parallels in American sports. In football ( that's real football for you folks across the pond ) the American Football League arose to compete with the National Football League. In basketball, the American Basketball Association grew to compete with the National Basketball association.

Both of the newcomers eventually merged with the older organizations, but did so after making some change in policy.

[tj86430]

that's real football for you folks across the pond

[Kirby]

IMHO, the best strategy for Lee would be to start a competing association with no or lower fees.

I think this is something Lee is considering. But not all pros are as actively against the current association as Lee is.

Also, somewhat related, Lee Sedol mentioned the possibility of starting up a new association to replace this one. Other pros, however, seem hesitant to leave the existing association.

[xed_over]

I love how GoGameGuru describes the event...

To correct recent rumors: Lee Sedol has canceled his union membership. He hasn't quit KBA, nor pro Go.

[by78]

Well, if Lee Sedol is excluded from any domestic tournament due to his quitting this organization, I'm sure the Chinese will welcome Lee with open arms.

Or maybe Lee can find some free time to tour North America (and bring his friend Gu Li along) so we fans can meet him here. Hey, one can always dream.

[Kirby]

Well, in seemingly anti-climatic news, it appears that there is a good chance that things will work themselves out [1].

이들 사례에 대해 양건 회장은 “기사회 내부에서 충분히 검토할 수 있는 사안”이라고 말했다. “이세돌 9단과 대화를 하면서 서로 공감하는 부분을 충분히 나눴고, 뭔가 괜찮은 방향으로 갈 수도 있을 것 같다는 생각이 들었다”고도 전했다. 이세돌 9단 역시 “대화는 분명히 필요하다”며 “요구 사항이 받아들여지면 탈퇴를 철회할 생각도 있다”고 밝혔다. 양측이 대화로 문제를 해결하겠다는 의지를 보인 셈이다.

(In response to Lee Sedol's complaints about the organization), Korean Pro Association Chairman Yang-gun said, "The issue is something we'll be able to sufficiently examine from within the association; While discussing with Lee Sedol 9d, we discussed what we agreed upon, and came to think that we could move toward a direction we could both agree upon."

Lee Sedol 9d also revealed, "Conversation was clearly needed; if we can sit well with the requirements, I'm also thinking of withdrawing my resignation."

It looks like both sides are willing to resolve the situation through conversation.

So my personal guess is that some changes will be made to the way things work in that pro association - maybe the rules will be more relaxed, or perhaps more flexible for pros. And if that all goes according to a way that Lee Sedol can live with, he'll probably withdraw his resignation, and keep being a part of the association.

[1] http://sports.media.daum.net/sports/gen ... 2123442983

[Bantari]

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Exactly.
Which in turn helps ensure great interest in Go and this in turn causes the prize money to be high and top players like Lee Sedol earning a lot of money.

I would feel much more compassionate towards him if he also complained about the system when he was still a young and budding pro with uncertain future. Or did he?