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How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=13222

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Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:50 am
by Bill Spight
mongus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
In addition to making a likely eye and point of territory at "c", what else is good about :b6:?
I'm not 100% sure. Is it something to do with connecting the two black groups? If 6 is not played the marked black stones could be quite vulnerable if the following was played instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . b O Y O X X X . .
$$ . . a Y Y Y O . . . X .
$$ . . X 9 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 7 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X 8 6 . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
Yes, if :b6: in this diagram, :w7: takes away Black's potential points there. Then :b8: only fills a dame. After :w9: :b10: can connect at "a" or otherwise protect his stones or territory. In most cases Black will be better off for doing so and will thank White for :w9:. :)

But we already knew that that :b6: is bad.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X c 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
To answer my question play around a little bit with this diagram after :b6:. :)

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:17 am
by Bill Spight
mongus wrote:
dfan wrote: And don't forget that Bill had another couple of questions :)
Yes.. I dodged those questions because I couldn't think of any better move for :w5:. I think that was the best move (locally).
Right you are! :w5: is best. :) Well done!
If white played here instead, from what I can see the outcome would not look much different.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X . 6 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X 8 7 5 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
For :b4: this I think is better.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X 6 5 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . 8 7 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
It is still very painful for black.
In the second diagram:

Does White have a better move for :w7:?
Yes.
Does Black have a better move for :b6:?
Yes.

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:20 am
by mongus
Bill Spight wrote:
Does White have a better move for :w7:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X 6 5 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . 7 . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:22 am
by mongus
Bill Spight wrote:
Does Black have a better move for :b6:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X 7 5 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 8 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . 6 . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]

I'm still stuck on the initial question (what else is good about :b6:)...

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:53 pm
by Bill Spight
mongus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Does Black have a better move for :b6:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X 7 5 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 8 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . 6 . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
Almost! :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . 7 . . . . . . . .
$$ . 9 8 6 O O O O O O . .
$$ . , 5 4 O B O X X X . .
$$ . . 3 B B B O a b . X .
$$ . . X 1 O O O O X X X .
$$ . . X 2 X O X O O O X .
$$ . . X . X . X X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
If :b8: then :w9: captures the :bc: stones in a ladder. :oops:

That's why in my adaptation I put a Black stone at 3, to avoid such complications. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O a b . X .
$$ . . X . 5 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 4 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
This :b6: does not run that risk. :)
I'm still stuck on the initial question (what else is good about :b6:)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X a b c 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
After :b6: there are three possible plays in the vicinity, "a", "b", and "c". If White plays there next, which one should he choose? If Black plays there next, which one should she choose?

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:47 am
by mongus
Both black and white should play b. Black would get a point at a and white playing there would prevent black from getting this point. Was this the other good thing about :b6: ? It enables this extra point (assuming white decides to play elsewhere)?

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:07 pm
by Bill Spight
mongus wrote:Both black and white should play b. Black would get a point at a and white playing there would prevent black from getting this point. Was this the other good thing about :b6: ? It enables this extra point (assuming white decides to play elsewhere)?
Yep. :)

Since we don't know the rest of the board, we don't know who will get to play at "b", we count the point at "a" as 1/2 point for Black. :)

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:10 pm
by Bill Spight
Next question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
Does Black have a better play than :b2:?
Yes.

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:11 am
by mongus
Bill Spight wrote:Next question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
Does Black have a better play than :b2:?
Yes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . . 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . . X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
White would have to capture the stone or risk being cut off..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . 4 1 7 O O O X .
$$ . . X . 6 5 3 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
That is very interesting. The possibility of sacrificing the stone to gain more territory hadn't actually occurred to me before.

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:48 am
by Bill Spight
mongus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Next question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . 4 3 O O X X X .
$$ . . X 6 5 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . 2 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
Does Black have a better play than :b2:?
Yes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . . 1 X O O O X .
$$ . . X . . . . X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
White would have to capture the stone or risk being cut off..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . O O O O O O . .
$$ . , . . O X O X X X . .
$$ . . . X X X O . . . X .
$$ . . X . . 2 O O X X X .
$$ . . X . 4 1 7 O O O X .
$$ . . X . 6 5 3 X X . X .
$$ . . X X X X X X X X X .
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . .[/go]
That is very interesting. The possibility of sacrificing the stone to gain more territory hadn't actually occurred to me before.
Bravo! :clap: :salute: :clap:

BTW, in a real game, after :b4: :w5: is so small by comparison with :w1: - :w3: that White will probably have a bigger play somewhere else, and will not play :w5: right away. In fact, Black will probably be able to play there with sente.

Re: How can I stop this intrusion into my territory?

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:34 am
by mongus
Awesome. Thanks. It is interesting to note how focusing on preserving my territory rather than just getting offending and trying to block my opponent makes a difference.
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