Life In 19x19

If you do apply the contents of the few books and learn from your own mistakes, it might be enough.

Babelardus wrote: If you're right Robert, then there's not much to read if you're between KGS 5k and 10k...

I think most published books are for around that range actually. It's hard to find ones for when you're stronger than that.

oren wrote:

Babelardus wrote: If you're right Robert, then there's not much to read if you're between KGS 5k and 10k...

I think most published books are for around that range actually. It's hard to find ones for when you're stronger than that.

I think alot of the older but still gold(er) japanese books aim at 5k-1d as a matter of principle mostly. Once you go past dan level there are mostly problem books, no magic secret 'dan' principles and strategies to learn. But when you're still SDK, there's alot of good stuff to dig into.

Here are some of my selections off the top of my head for a curriculum you can use to get stronger theoretical knowledge in the SDK range. Aka not tsumego books:

All About thickness by Ishida Yoshio
Opening theory made easy Otake Hideo
Elementary Go series vol 5 Attack and Defense
Strategic principles of go Yoshiaki Nagahara
Lessons in the fundamentals (overrated but good for 5k nonetheless)
Kage's secret chronicles of handicap go (Learning to play strongly in handicap games will help you get stronger. I might value this book higher than Lessons in the fundamentals actually).
Mastering the basics vol 1 501 opening problems by Richard Bozulich
Mastering the basics vol 3 Making good shape by Rob van Zeijist and Richard Bozulich
How to Play Against Stronger Players Vol 1&2 by Sakai Michiharu

OtakuViking wrote:no magic secret 'dan' principles and strategies to learn.

Maybe not magic, but of course there are many dan principles and strategies. I agree that there are only relatively few such books for dans.

RobertJasiek wrote:

OtakuViking wrote:no magic secret 'dan' principles and strategies to learn.

Maybe not magic, but of course there are many dan principles and strategies. I agree that there are only relatively few such books for dans.

I think the distinction I want to make is that anyone can memorize basic principles, strategies, proverbs, joseki's and so on, but that doing so does not make you a dan level player. Thus, nothing stops a kyu player from learning a whole bunch of theoretical knowledge and still losing miserably to a stronger player if his reading skills aren't in place. Of course these two things are complementary and no truly strong player neglects either. However, I think it's possible to become a dan level player without learning alot of Go theory by simply getting strong at reading and then learning by playing. You see that type of player alot on wbaduk and tygem and they can be fairly strong. However, the other extreme (lacking reading ability) would fall to pieces even if he/she had 7d theoretical knowledge.

I think that most if not all dan level principles and strategies are merely extensions of basic principles and strategies that even a 10kyu could learn. That, along with mistake reduction and reading ability makes one a dan player, not partaking of the mystical dan level principle soup distilled in book form, should such a source exist. I know there are some problem books like volume 7 of Graded go problems for dan players (excellent book series btw), that illustrate opening and middle game principles via problems. I don't think any of the principles themselves can be ranked, only the difficulty of the problems and thus how hard that principle is to apply in any given case. As one becomes stronger, one can apply the principle more and more and with greater skill. Thus, a basic principle like Make a base, evolves as you gain more tactical skill. To the beginner make a base might just mean extending two spaces on the side or enclosing the corner, that sort of move. But then as you get stronger, you suddenly start attaching to strong positions and making sabaki, a more high level application of 'making a base'. Not the best example, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. Namely that the principles aren't ranked, but that it is the skill with which we apply the principles that make them 'dan level'.

My point is that in theory a kyu player could learn all theoretical knowledge of go but still lose because she doesn't possess enough raw reading power and tesuji skill to carry these principles out. Learning go theory and principles is a great booster, but I believe that cultivating the raw power of calculation is the most important thing and that everything else is auxilliary.


(sorry that was a rather long post lol)

Your discussion is interesting but deserves a new thread:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 00#p206600

About Graded Go Problems: There is a series "Graded Go Problems for Beginners", which says to go from 30k to 10k, and a series "Graded Go Problems for Dan Players", which obviously is aimed at 1d playes and stronger.

Is there no series for players in between?

Babelardus wrote:About Graded Go Problems: There is a series "Graded Go Problems for Beginners", which says to go from 30k to 10k, and a series "Graded Go Problems for Dan Players", which obviously is aimed at 1d playes and stronger.

Is there no series for players in between?

Don't necessarily go by the what the book says it is for. The ranks given for Graded Go Problems for Beginners do not correspond for example to KGS ranks. Players a good deal stronger than 10k (KGS) can still get a lot out of them.

The rank ranges given on the covers of Graded Go Problems for Beginners are widely regarded as ridiculous. At 4k, I find volume 4 quite challenging. (I would really like a volume 3.5.) In addition, the first two volumes of Graded Go Problems for Dan Players start at kyu level. So there is no real gap in between.

OK, thanks In that case, I'm going to order those as well, so I can do them after I finish the Jump Level Up problems. Even though they are 'for children', there are some in there that are harder than expected, even in book 1.

Yeah, the GGPB books are great and deserve a place on every kyu player's bookshelf.

I'd say the Jump Level Up books are about the level of volumes 2 and 3 of GGPB. The fact that you already usually know the theme of the problem makes them a bit easier than they otherwise would be.

The Graded Go Problems for Dan Players are excellent. I would estimate the ratings to be about 3 stones weaker than what the problems state - which is consistent with what I have found in playing at the Nihon Kiin (YMMV)

dfan wrote:The rank ranges given on the covers of Graded Go Problems for Beginners are widely regarded as ridiculous. At 4k, I find volume 4 quite challenging.

This. At (OGS) 6k, I am on my second attempt at vol 3 and it feels exactly right for me.

I recognise myself in the comments upthread that talk about principles being fine but needing to be backed up by reading power, by the way. I feel pretty comfortable principles-wise, but I can't read my way out of a paper bag. So I've belatedly started trying to do tsumego every single day - goproblems.com says I am about 14k

joellercoaster wrote: I recognise myself in the comments upthread that talk about principles being fine but needing to be backed up by reading power, by the way. I feel pretty comfortable principles-wise, but I can't read my way out of a paper bag. So I've belatedly started trying to do tsumego every single day - goproblems.com says I am about 14k

With me, it's just the other way around. I can read out a lot of things just fine (if I take the time and trouble, which I too often don't ), but if there is 'nothing' to do, i.e. not being in the middle of a fight, I often don't know what to do.

Babelardus: between us, we're probably a pretty decent Go player