Life In 19x19

I wonder why these games feel so much more "bot-like" than the mostly-human feeling of the moves AlphaGo played against Ke Jie and Lee Sedol. The way that the players jump from area to area in the first game, for example, is reminiscent of the MCTS bots of yore.

Without commentary, I can't seem to find any interest in these games. I'm probably too weak.

Charlie wrote:I wonder why these games feel so much more "bot-like" than the mostly-human feeling of the moves AlphaGo played against Ke Jie and Lee Sedol. The way that the players jump from area to area in the first game, for example, is reminiscent of the MCTS bots of yore.

Without commentary, I can't seem to find any interest in these games. I'm probably too weak.

I feel sure that we are going to get some pro commentary before long.

Looking at these games, I can see why Fan Hui talked about AlphaGo's philosophy being different from that of humans. And that is true of the approach strictly in terms of (not well defined) probability of winning instead of territory (points). But human pros do not think strictly in terms of territory, either. As Takagawa said, you make territory through fighting. (You can make territory in a plodding fashion, but then you lose.)

As for jumping around, that may be explained in human terms. In general, adding stones to a region reduces the local temperature (how many points a play gains there). So in general it makes sense to switch to a different region after a few plays. (OC, there are many exceptions to that. ) Around 20 years ago, in response to a request by John Fairbairn made to the go community at large, I coined the "proverb", "Tenuki is always an option." As the AlphaGo self play games show, it is, isn't it?

Eary in the last century Kitani and Go Seigen ushered in the New Fuseki, which stressed center play. Perhaps AlphaGo will usher in a kind of New New Fuseki, or Ultra-Modern Fuseki. Stay tuned.

Any chance we can put the large number of embedded sgfs behind hide tags? This page stops rendering halfway through on my iPhone, and I have a hunch that's the reason. It's slow but functional on my laptop.

Bill Spight wrote:

Charlie wrote:I wonder why these games feel so much more "bot-like" than the mostly-human feeling of the moves AlphaGo played against Ke Jie and Lee Sedol. The way that the players jump from area to area in the first game, for example, is reminiscent of the MCTS bots of yore.

Without commentary, I can't seem to find any interest in these games. I'm probably too weak.

I feel sure that we are going to get some pro commentary before long.

Looking at these games, I can see why Fan Hui talked about AlphaGo's philosophy being different from that of humans. And that is true of the approach strictly in terms of (not well defined) probability of winning instead of territory (points). But human pros do not think strictly in terms of territory, either. As Takagawa said, you make territory through fighting. (You can make territory in a plodding fashion, but then you lose.)

As for jumping around, that may be explained in human terms. In general, adding stones to a region reduces the local temperature (how many points a play gains there). So in general it makes sense to switch to a different region after a few plays. (OC, there are many exceptions to that. ) Around 20 years ago, in response to a request by John Fairbairn made to the go community at large, I coined the "proverb", "Tenuki is always an option." As the AlphaGo self play games show, it is, isn't it?

Eary in the last century Kitani and Go Seigen ushered in the New Fuseki, which stressed center play. Perhaps AlphaGo will usher in a kind of New New Fuseki, or Ultra-Modern Fuseki. Stay tuned.

In his commentary on AlphaGo-Ke Jie game 3, Ryan Li said the one proverb that AlphaGo consistently follows is, "If there is no local play that will allow you to gain an advantage, tenuki." (The wording may not be exactly correct - I can't find the line in his video right now.) Some of these games show that in the extreme.

jeromie wrote:In his commentary on AlphaGo-Ke Jie game 3, Ryan Li said the one proverb that AlphaGo consistently follows is, "If there is no local play that will allow you to gain an advantage, tenuki." (The wording may not be exactly correct - I can't find the line in his video right now.) Some of these games show that in the extreme.

Yes, as I discovered a few years ago, there is at least one actual proverb along those lines. One I can loosely translate as, "If you don't know where to play (locally), play somewhere else."

OC, AlphaGo does not think locally. That may be a potential theoretical disadavantage, but you can't prove that by its games.

Yes, as I discovered a few years ago, there is at least one actual proverb along those lines. One I can loosely translate as, "If you don't know where to play (locally), play somewhere else."

You both might be thinking of a proverb along the lines of "If a local play is worth 15 points, tenuki". It surfaces in different forms, with a different number of points, and has been around for at least 50 years. It appears to be a western concoction, and the likely origin is Russia (or CCCP as it then was). It appears in David Mitchell's book on proverbs.

hyperpape wrote:Any chance we can put the large number of embedded sgfs behind hide tags? This page stops rendering halfway through on my iPhone, and I have a hunch that's the reason. It's slow but functional on my laptop.

Yes, fixed that – good call

John Fairbairn wrote:

Yes, as I discovered a few years ago, there is at least one actual proverb along those lines. One I can loosely translate as, "If you don't know where to play (locally), play somewhere else."

You both might be thinking of a proverb along the lines of "If a local play is worth 15 points, tenuki". It surfaces in different forms, with a different number of points, and has been around for at least 50 years. It appears to be a western concoction, and the likely origin is Russia (or CCCP as it then was). It appears in David Mitchell's book on proverbs.

I saw it in one of Go Seigen's books a few years ago. Not worth tracking down now, I don't think. What I loosely translated as "don't know" was 分からない, as I recall.

Ah! I found a reference to it on Sensei's Library. Here it is:

分からない時は手を抜け

at http://www5.plala.or.jp/hasebehp/igk/igk_unyou.htm#f

Charlie wrote:I wonder why these games feel so much more "bot-like" than the mostly-human feeling of the moves AlphaGo played against Ke Jie and Lee Sedol.

Because as soon as Ke Jie plays enough inefficient moves in the opening, Alphago takes advantage of them. From that point Alphago is in the lead, and is interested in solidifying and simplifying the situation on the board, so it plays natural-looking, simple moves instead of the extremely sharp, tactical probes it plays when it feels behind.

Ah! I found a reference to it on Sensei's Library. Here it is:

分からない時は手を抜け

Not quite the same thing, though, is it, Bill? "Te wo nuku" is part of the normal language for missing something out - usually something that is actually needed (and so often has a bad sense, as in "cut corners"). Here the usual meaning would be to defer a move until you know better how to continue, but the implication is that you do still have to continue locally. The "toki" also tells us that this is a "whenever" situation not an optional "if."

The specific go usage is almost always "tenuki (wo) suru" (with derivatives tenuki sareru, tenuki dekiru etc). The "te wo nuku" form can occasionally be used (e.g. for elegant variation, when you have ignored one move by the opponent and then ignore another, you might say "sara ni te wo nukimasu" (skip yet another move), though even then you can perfectly well say "sara ni tenuki suru"). But more than that, tenuki is (?) always defined in Japanese as deliberately not responding to an opponent's move even when there is a perceived need. It is an optional, conscious decision where you do know what you are doing. You have gone elsewhere and, just like Katie, you are satisfied with your peanuts and crackerjack and don't care if you never get back. Accordingly, the equivalent Japanese proverb is 手抜きは最高の手段. (Tenuki is the supreme resource) - which is much more like your "tenuki is always an option."

Thanks, John.

Suffice it to say that we agree that there are subtleties, but we disagree about the pragmatics of language. As for 手抜きは最高の手段 I think that overstates my proposed saying. It reminds me of the contract bridge saying, in British English, No bid is the best bid. 'No bid' being the British version of 'pass'. The great bridge writer, Victor Mollo, once joked that small children should be made to stand in front of a mirror for hours per day, repeating, "No bid."

John Fairbairn wrote:

Ah! I found a reference to it on Sensei's Library. Here it is:

分からない時は手を抜け

Not quite the same thing, though, is it, Bill? "Te wo nuku" is part of the normal language for missing something out - usually something that is actually needed (and so often has a bad sense, as in "cut corners"). Here the usual meaning would be to defer a move until you know better how to continue, but the implication is that you do still have to continue locally. The "toki" also tells us that this is a "whenever" situation not an optional "if."

The specific go usage is almost always "tenuki (wo) suru" (with derivatives tenuki sareru, tenuki dekiru etc). The "te wo nuku" form can occasionally be used (e.g. for elegant variation, when you have ignored one move by the opponent and then ignore another, you might say "sara ni te wo nukimasu" (skip yet another move), though even then you can perfectly well say "sara ni tenuki suru"). But more than that, tenuki is (?) always defined in Japanese as deliberately not responding to an opponent's move even when there is a perceived need. It is an optional, conscious decision where you do know what you are doing. You have gone elsewhere and, just like Katie, you are satisfied with your peanuts and crackerjack and don't care if you never get back. Accordingly, the equivalent Japanese proverb is 手抜きは最高の手段. (Tenuki is the supreme resource) - which is much more like your "tenuki is always an option."

I don't quite get the distinction being made here. Are you saying that the meaning is different since Bill's quote used "手を抜け" instead of "手抜き"? Or maybe that "手抜き" is always a conscious decision?

Not sure how much you can trust a wikipedia article, but there's some description of tenuki here:

wikipedia wrote: 一般に、戦いの最中や、大きな欠陥を残すような場面で手を抜くのはよくない。しかし手を抜いても大きな損害が出ないような場合なら、思い切って手を抜き、大場に先着するのも重要な戦法である。また、完全に形を決めてしまわず、後に味や含みを残しておくために手を抜くこともある。

Roughly, I'd translate this as: Generally, in the middle of a fight, or in the case where you're leaving a big defect, "手を抜くのはよくない". But if it's the case where there won't be a lot of damage, resolutely "手を抜き", playing first in a big area is an important tactic. Also, doing "手を抜く", not completely deciding on a shape, for the purpose of leaving aji or other implications for later also sometimes happens.

In the description here, they used "手を抜く" and "手を抜き".

I never imagined much difference between "手を抜く", "手を抜き", or "手抜き". Is there an implication that "手抜き" always happens consciously when one is aware of the situation? Or is this just how pros typically use the term?

Is it possible for amateurs to "手抜き" without knowing what the heck is going on?

In the same way that all professions have their own jargon, go pros use tenuki suru as the much preferred technical term rather than te wo nuku. When they don't, there is typically a reason that we should try to be sensitive to. I have outlined a couple of scenarios above, but there are bound to be others. Of course, it may all just depend on what side of the bed the writer got out of, but it is my experience that there usually is a valid reason, just as in the example above we can detect a different emphasis - skipping a move (but actually only deferring it) because we don't know what to do yet and skipping a move because we think we know exactly what we are doing - we have found something bigger.

You have to make up your own mind how careful a reader you want to be, just as in go you can read one move ahead or 20. In go I'm a one-move man but in my professional life, dealing with legal documents and other crafted documents, I have had to be not only a 20-move man but also to read between the lines. And that's all without mentioning the joys of linguistic analysis and explications de texte (my favourite task in school). So it's second nature for me to look at go texts carefully (but maybe not the diagrams!).

It's over-refined for some people, I know, but I think this approach is paying off in establishing the proper meaning of thickness, for example.

Is your view of the nuance of tenuki solely based on how you've seen pros use the term in the past? If so, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, since there's no way to really discuss further.

The "proverb" under discussion sounds like an amateur one to me. I watch a lot of television commentaries (well, three a week anyway from the NHK and Ryusei). The issue of not knowing what to do just does not arise. From the pro point of view the problem is that the available local plays are known but all lead to poor results. In other words the player has been outmaneuvered locally. In that case, tenuki is the only appropriate choice. The player hopes to change the overall state of the board so that one of the rejected local plays becomes favorable in that overall context. I don't think a pro would describe this in terms of not knowing what to do.

Many amateurs like me settle for making the best of a bad bargain locally (in gote more often than not!) and wonder why we don't get stronger. Getting to pro involves getting over that mindset among many other things.