Prokovich game

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:13 am

There are still a lot of equally good moves at this time.

I would enclose one of the corners now (E17 or P17)
White is playing a territorial game with two 3-3 moves.
If black encloses a corner he keeps the balance in the game by also taking territory.

looking further ahead.

Provided black does enclose one of the corners, I expect the following:

White can play around a to prevent black getting a nice extension there.
This allows black to play around b, and boldly take even more points, counteracting the territorial 3-3 opening.

White can also play around b himself. This won't give black time to play around a.
This is the more interesting option as whoever gets sente after the fight/joseki in the top left will likely get to play around a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

@Joaz Banbeck
While tengen might be fun it does not seem pro-like. For example white K17 will neutralize it quite effectively I think. Black will have a hard time getting enough points. white played 3 very territorial moves and it is still unclear how much tengen is going to give black.

Tooveli · Post by **Tooveli** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:48 am

hyperpape wrote:I think facing komoku is not a very common strategy for Black: I more often see it being used by white. No idea why that's the case.

This could be completely wrong but I think the reason is that facing komoku are generally used as a counter to an influence based strategy as Black (I believe Go Seigen liked to do this). In a parallel opening against facing komoku Black cannot make a normal approach and simultaneously expand his framework so is denied an obvious nice point. If Black wants to approach a corner he must jump into White's side and the game is already split up. If Black doesn't approach a White komoku then he violates the opening principle of unsettled corners before sides so White is also happy.

I like playing facing komoku as White because it makes me feel like I'm being disruptive to my opponents plans as early as possible (while still taking empty corners).

Facing komoku as Black has a weird unambitious feeling to it for me. Maybe Black played it to counter the even more unambitious feeling 3-3 emits. Seriously, 3-3 is ugly.

LovroKlc · Post by **LovroKlc** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:50 am

I think corner enclosure is a good move for B now. I think it would be kind of bigger than approaching the 3-3. For example, imagine W enclosing his 3-3(a move that would be countered by approach move).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

IF this one, B gets nice 3, so I think W would have to consider another enclosure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way I would be happy with 3-5 combination. B gets 2 enclosures, and that looks good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the other corner gets enclosed, 5 serves as a good extension.

Taking a side(lower, right, left) doesnt seem big for me only because san-san doesnt give any particular influence over each side, and it is not oriented on one side, and I do not think I ever saw playing on the upper side when there are facing komoku. Probably because it is hard to enclose than(the move on the side becomes kinda wasted).

I wouldnt play the high enclosure because it gives additional influence to the side, and because san-san gives weak influence on the side, playing there wouldnt be so big(only my opinion, not sure if it is correct). So I would probably play keima enclosure. I am not a fan of ogeima enclosure...

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:06 am

@ LovroKlc

I think a 3-3 is played to enclose a corner with ONE move. Therefore I think it unlikely white wants to spend another move there unless black approached it first.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:10 am

freegame wrote:@ LovroKlc

I think a 3-3 is played to enclose a corner with ONE move. Therefore I think it unlikely white wants to spend another move there unless black approached it first.

True. Because he (or she) played the 3-3s to make the corners safe and boring, white will probably approach a corner next. You play in the most intersting/pointsworthy/unresolved area, and he/she intentionally took care of the other areas quickly to be able to better respond to black's plans.

Tooveli · Post by **Tooveli** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:14 am

I like Chew Terr's move next, though I would play it on the right hand side as this is a tenuki and shows you're not just following White around!
I also like Joaz' move, maybe even at K9 would be interesting, but I doubt I'd play either in a tournament.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:07 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Move 5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:19 am

So far, the game seems to make sense. I'm expecting a high approach to the top left corner most. I imagine one-space, keeping things fairly normal but doing it in mostly-sente.

Also, thanks Tooveli, good to know my move wasn't too crazy. I do like your metagamey idea of changing sides for purely nonpositional reasons.

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:12 pm

I would play like below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 5 follow-up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . 7 a . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , 1 . 5 . . b . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White

approaching the top left to avoid that black takes both corners with extension options on two sides as well as b (3 great follow-ups)
Black :b7:

black still takes the corner like this. A pincer seems wrong because P17 is low
White :w10:

this joseki makes sure black does not get the two space extension at a in snete
black :b13:

black gets sente from the joseki and can make this nice side extension.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:18 pm

freegame: Thank you, your explanation of :w10:

is helpful. The rest is the sort of thing I would have predicted, but it is good to see the hanging connection with the proper reason.

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:22 pm

There are two regions to think about: top left and the right side.

In the top left, White, upon approaching, does not fear a pincer from the top side, as Black is low there anyway. Furthermore, White is not very interested in central influence. Therefore, a low and near kakari seems natural.

On the right side, White is not too focused on a close connection to his strong lower right stone, so extending as far as possible, while keeping the option of further extending, seems sensible: I would play R11 here.

Of these two options, I think that the kakari is a bit bigger, so I would play E17.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:25 pm

Sometimes I am apprehensive of this type of connection, because of something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 5 follow-up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 1 . 5 . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 7 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like this :b11:

... Is the followup optimal for white on this board? I favor black a bit...

^@freegame or others

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:30 pm

Kirby wrote:
Sometimes I am apprehensive of this type of connection, because of something like this:
$$Wcm6 Move 5 follow-up
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X 8 1 . 5 . . 6 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 5 follow-up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 1 . 5 . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 7 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like this ... Is the followup optimal for white on this board? I favor black a bit...

^@freegame or others

I don't think this is as bad as it looks, black doesn't seem to be able to attack anything too strongly to handle. It's sticky though, so of course white could just make the solid connection to avoid it.

Or play the avalanche, which is more fun

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:41 pm

I followed Kirby, but I'm not sure why we're hiding these.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 5 follow-up $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . 5 . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is an alternate followup. I don't know if it's better or not. I know that as B, I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with the position of 6.

Also, I second moving this thread. I'm enjoying it, but when I first open the forums, I'd like to know whether the rest of the professionals forum has been updated or not, since this thread will almost always have new posts.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:51 pm

I dithered about where to put this thread and finally settled on this forum because the description for it included "analysis of professional games". But I agree that this is sort of a different case, especially if it ends up getting hundreds of comments (and I'm very pleased with the number it has already gotten!). I'll ask an admin to move it to Study Group.

Life In 19x19

Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game