Byo-yomi: Do you like it?

[amnal]

I have nothing against byo-yomi, and am happy to let it be the default in my online games.

I also have nothing against canadian timing, and I don't understand why it would be a 'patch' in any way. It seems sensible enough to me.

[cdybeijing]

I have nothing against byo-yomi, and am happy to let it be the default in my online games.

I also have nothing against canadian timing, and I don't understand why it would be a 'patch' in any way. It seems sensible enough to me.

It is a patch because it was designed to be a method for reasonably allowing overtime on analog clocks. It's a clever situation to a difficult problem.

However, much time in Canadian is wasted counting out stones and determining how many moves remain to be made. Additionally, unused time is lost when the overtime period resets, meaning that players are not getting an equal balance of thinking time during the game. (i.e. For the two players, the sum of actual thinking time used by player 1 + time remaining on the clock of player 1 will not be equal to the same calculation for player 2.)

[Liisa]

What is there to dislike about Japanese Byoyomi?

This is good question and it seems that it is not that clear to everybody.

The main reason is that with Japanese byouyomi, e.g. 60 mins + 1x20 secs, around 5-10 % of games are decided due to time loss. And often case time loss has nothing to do with actual time pressure like in the case of Dinerstein 7-dan in Leksand and van Zeijst 7-dan in Tampere. But loss is just a result of human error or other temporary brain fart.

Also many people will in any case end up in byouyomi in half way of the game. Because they THINK that they are able to play 50-100 moves within 5-10 second marginal from the death. But during long tournament there are hundreds of moves that must be done within 4 second marginal from time loss. And it goes without saying that there hundreds of rare events that can go wrong and that even experienced 7-dans cannot take in consideration. Then we need to bother unnecessarily appeals committee.

We need to have smooth time pressure. Unlike with Japanese byouyomi, with Fischer unused time accumulates. Thus you will in any case get maximum benefit for the extra time gained per move. And you are able to keep e.g. 1-2 minutes safety marginal. If you are unable to keep 1-2 minutes safety marginal, then that is due to time pressure and you perfectly deserve to lose on time, because you are unable to use the pace that is allocated for you to play.

Problem is with Japanese byouyomi that you can maximize possible time used for thinking by playing half of the game on overtime and moving just few seconds before verge of death. Thus Japanese byouyomi is always prone to accidental time losses. We can greatly reduce the probability of accidental time loss by using e.g. 10x30sec overtime, but that would only mean that people do fear the overtime even less and instead of half of the game, they would play two thirds of the game on overtime. This would be serious thread for the tournament schedule.

Please notice huge differences between concepts accidental time loss and time loss due to time pressure. Accidental time loss is what we do not want and what we can fully prevent e.g. with Fischer time. Loss due to time pressure is what we really want because tournament schedule overrules everything. And because with fischer you can always keep safe several minutes buffer to the time loss, then if you cannot maintain that buffer that prevents accidental time losses in every possible cases, then it is due to time pressure and there are absolutely no complaints that can be issued after time loss.

With Japanese byouyomi we cannot require people to keep safety buffer, because they can maximize time allocated only by playing as big part of the game as possible on byouyomi and leaving as small as possible buffer. This is just ridiculous. And can be only argued and defended using arguments like "we should use Japanese byouyomi because we have used it on the previous tournaments" etc.

[amnal]

I have nothing against byo-yomi, and am happy to let it be the default in my online games.

I also have nothing against canadian timing, and I don't understand why it would be a 'patch' in any way. It seems sensible enough to me.

It is a patch because it was designed to be a method for reasonably allowing overtime on analog clocks. It's a clever situation to a difficult problem.

However, much time in Canadian is wasted counting out stones and determining how many moves remain to be made. Additionally, unused time is lost when the overtime period resets, meaning that players are not getting an equal balance of thinking time during the game. (i.e. For the two players, the sum of actual thinking time used by player 1 + time remaining on the clock of player 1 will not be equal to the same calculation for player 2.)

Maybe I just never considered counting out a few stones to be problematic. I suppose I still don't, really

The argument that one player gets a few extra seconds thinking time is also unconvincing. I've been in situations in my games where these few seconds might be useful (if they ever would be), and I don't think it's ever been important. Though I always feel rude looking at the board while my opponent counts out, so I spend extra time fiddling with his clock

The arguments in favour of Fischer time seem to be along the lines of 'it's technically perfect', but I am not convinced that it is realistically perfect - the discussion of 'keeping a 2 minute buffer' etc. involves just as much playing the clock as byo-yomi, which I thought was the problem.

It would be most interesting to have similar tournaments run different overtime systems and see what people preferred and what people lost on time with. I suspect that, if they were used to both systems, the difference would be negligible. If this is the case, it's far more interesting to just look at what people would *like*, and if that's Fischer time then it's fine by me.

[Liisa]

the discussion of 'keeping a 2 minute buffer' etc. involves just as much playing the clock as byo-yomi, which I thought was the problem.

This is good point and this is the reason why I disagree with Harleqin that Fischer is good for lightning and rapid time settings. If you have only 10 second increment it is really frustrating and difficult to keep up safety buffer and you need to constantly monitor the clock. Thus it is not much better than overtime.

This is not the issue with slow 30 sec increments and it is enough that clock just beeps when you have less than 1 min time. And it really is not demanding to keep 2-10 minute buffer. Just play few moves fast and you have gained enough buffer.

With 10-20 sec time delay, it is of course even more brutal, because you cannot accumulate time. Then time pressure just keeps increasing until you lose on time. 10 second time delay, although might be in theory more brutal, is in practice more gentle than similar Fischer, because it is more predictable and easy to control. You know that every second you waste on main time increases time pressure. With fast Fischer you can in principle always gather safe buffer, but in practice this much is harder than it sounds.

[dfan]

I like byo-yomi but I have only ever used it online (the tournaments I have played have always used Canadian overtime).

I like it because:
- It makes me feel like a pro
- It is interesting! There is a strategy to using your time well (e.g., if you have an obvious move, you can still use most of your time to look at other things).
- Because you are guaranteed 30 seconds (or whatever) every move, you don't run into situations where you suddenly realize you have to play 5 stones in 5 moves.

[DrStraw]

I like byo-yomi but I have only ever used it online (the tournaments I have played have always used Canadian overtime).

I like it because:
- It makes me feel like a pro
- It is interesting! There is a strategy to using your time well (e.g., if you have an obvious move, you can still use most of your time to look at other things).
- Because you are guaranteed 30 seconds (or whatever) every move, you don't run into situations where you suddenly realize you have to play 5 stones in 5 moves.

Interesting. The pro method is no time limits. They are a modern invention since the creation of the Nihon Kiin.

[Kirby]

What is there to dislike about Japanese Byoyomi?

I have no idea. I like byo-yomi personally, but the person that kept PM-ing me called my opinion "theoretical nonsense". I didn't wish to continue the conversation in private, so I started this thread.

[Kirby]

...
Please notice huge differences between concepts accidental time loss and time loss due to time pressure. ...

I don't think we need to make a distinction between "accidental time loss" and "time loss due to time pressure". The latter is, of course, a loss, and the former is due to poor time management by the player.

[Liisa]

I like byo-yomi personally,

Your personal preference is irrelevant. Question is, how many top group games should be decided with accidental time loss that has nothing to do with actual time pressure in EGF A -class tournaments. Everyone should give a rough figure what is correct percentage. Then we can compare and calculate how many games are being decided by clock rather than skill with different timing systems. And choose that system that gives a probability that is closest to that what is our tolerance for accidental time losses.

Even if you personally like Japanese byouyomi, you cannot use that an argument that we should use it on the tournaments.

[Kirby]

I like byo-yomi personally,

Your personal preference is irrelevant. Question is, how many top group games should be decided with accidental time loss that has nothing to do with actual time pressure in EGF A -class tournaments. Everyone should give a rough figure what is correct percentage. Then we can compare and calculate how many games are being decided by clock rather than skill with different timing systems. And choose that system that gives a probability that is closest to that what is our tolerance for accidental time losses.

Even if you personally like Japanese byouyomi, you cannot use that an argument that we should use it on the tournaments.

But you are doing exactly the same thing. It is your personal preference that Japanese byo-yomi should not be used. It is impossible to accurately define "accidental time loss", so the figures that you are trying to come up with don't hold any real value. The fact is, "accidental time loss" is the same as "time pressure loss", because in both cases, the players used poor time management.

So by your logic, even if you personally DISlike Japanese byo-yomi, you cannot use that as an argument as to why we should not use it in tournaments.

By the way, personal preference is not irrelevant if the people playing in the tournaments have the said personal preference.

[Liisa]

It is impossible to accurately define "accidental time loss"

This is not true. In the game Dinerstein vs. van Zeijst in Tampere there was hundred percent of accidental time loss that had nothing to do with events on the board. It was just very human error that can happen because there are so many rare events that it is impossible for human to be prepared all of them. We can use this particular event as an definition of accidental time loss and we need set up tournament timing settings thus that this kind of events do occur as rarely as possible. It has nothing to do with my or anyone's personal preferences but we just do not want that there are vanzeijsts who bother appeals committee if we can avoid them using proper timing settings.

[mohsart]

... how many top group games should be decided with accidental time loss that has nothing to do with actual time pressure in EGF A -class tournaments...

This seems to be a totally different thing?
I suspect that it has to do with malfunctioning Ing clocks and not necesarilly Japanese overtime, or Byo-Yomi. Or actually the fact that some timers are silent, which IMHO actually is a information issue, eg "Please make sure that the volume of the timer is set at your preferred level, and if the timer is silent (and you don't like that) swtch it to one with sound".

/Mats
PS I like Byo-Yomi, but Canadian Overtime is ok too, if only analog timers are available

[Kirby]

It is impossible to accurately define "accidental time loss"

This is not true. In the game Dinerstein vs. van Zeijst in Tampere there was hundred percent of accidental time loss that had nothing to do with events on the board. It was just very human error that can happen because there are so many rare events that it is impossible for human to be prepared all of them. We can use this particular event as an definition of accidental time loss and we need set up tournament timing settings thus that this kind of events do occur as rarely as possible. It has nothing to do with my or anyone's personal preferences but we just do not want that there are vanzeijsts who bother appeals committee if can avoid them using proper timing settings.

I believe that van Zeijst's loss was due to poor timekeeping skills. It's possible that having sound turned up on the clock could have aided him in the timekeeping for the game, but the fact is, he wasn't paying enough attention to his time to notice that it had run out.

[Liisa]

It is impossible to accurately define "accidental time loss"

This is not true. In the game Dinerstein vs. van Zeijst in Tampere there was hundred percent of accidental time loss that had nothing to do with events on the board. It was just very human error that can happen because there are so many rare events that it is impossible for human to be prepared all of them. We can use this particular event as an definition of accidental time loss and we need set up tournament timing settings thus that this kind of events do occur as rarely as possible. It has nothing to do with my or anyone's personal preferences but we just do not want that there are vanzeijsts who bother appeals committee if can avoid them using proper timing settings.

I believe that van Zeijst's loss was due to poor timekeeping skills. It's possible that having sound turned up on the clock could have aided him in the timekeeping for the game, but the fact is, he wasn't paying enough attention to his time to notice that it had run out.

This is not exactly so. In my knowledge, clock's sound was not turned off and van Zeijst had played already several (dozens?) moves in byouyomi before time loss. During some time he perhaps lost the the focus on Ing clock and her counting in byouyomi. Complaining to appeals committee was just natural and perhaps right thing to do. Even though it was vain for the final results, but at least that we can have a good discussion how bad Japanese byouyomi is especially with Ing clock.

I did not get confirmation for that that does Ing clock support Fischer? Or is it just third generation Ing clock that supports Fischer? If ing clock does support Fischer there is no reasons to not use Fischer in Bordeaux, expect perhaps people's vanity.

[edit:] actually it was perhaps that it was Dinerstein who fixed the result via appeals committee, because referee had game to be continued, but that decision was overruled by appeals committee. Perhaps I should be better aware of examples that i am using.