Life In 19x19

Ian Butler wrote:The quote is in the original post.

"Becoming one stone stronger is the supreme enjoyment."

Thanks.

Knotwilg wrote: Meta comment: metaphors are often bollocks.

I didn't make up the metaphor - I was responding to what was already in the thread. If you want to talk directly about go, let's talk directly about go.

Knotwilg wrote: In go it's definitely more fun being a 2d when it comes to reading pro game commentaries. ...
Sure, the rank increase makes for a temporary boost of the ego but it's all about the better understanding, a lasting effect ...

Assumption #1: My interpretation of your post is that the meaning and/or enjoyment you get from go is from understanding it better, I guess - let me know if I'm off base here.

Assumption #2: Now assuming that I understood you correctly, what is it about *understanding* go, per say, that makes it an enjoyable activity? The rules are straightforward, so it must not be about understanding the rules. So my second assumption here is that this understanding that gives you pleasure is to better understand go strategy and/or ways to win the game. Am I correct with this assumption?

So if I'm not off base with these two assumptions, my interpretation here is that this "lasting effect" or enjoyment that you refer to has to do with some sort of pleasure or enjoyment that you get by knowing ways to increase your chances of winning a game. Can I make that conclusion from the two assumptions here?

I guess I'll stop here - I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I want to know if I get your meaning correctly before further discussion. Am I off base with what you intended to convey?

Kirby wrote:
I didn't make up the metaphor - I was responding to what was already in the thread. If you want to talk directly about go, let's talk directly about go.

It was Dave I believe who talked about mountains. I didn't mean it as an attack on either him or you. I just think metaphors are often distracting more than providing clarity on a subject.

Assumption #1: My interpretation of your post is that the meaning and/or enjoyment you get from go is from understanding it better, I guess - let me know if I'm off base here.

The lasting joy is of that kind. Of course, there is the occasional joy of destroying an opponent.

Assumption #2: Now assuming that I understood you correctly, what is it about *understanding* go, per say, that makes it an enjoyable activity? The rules are straightforward, so it must not be about understanding the rules. So my second assumption here is that this understanding that gives you pleasure is to better understand go strategy and/or ways to win the game. Am I correct with this assumption?

Obviously it's the strategy not the rules.

So if I'm not off base with these two assumptions, my interpretation here is that this "lasting effect" or enjoyment that you refer to has to do with some sort of pleasure or enjoyment that you get by knowing ways to increase your chances of winning a game. Can I make that conclusion from the two assumptions here?

No. It's more when reading a book like Lee Sedol - Gu Lin jubango by GoGameGuru, or Lee Sedol's own game commentaries or when providing guidance such as the recent exchanges with Ian Butler here. Of course climbing the ranks and winning against better players is enjoyable too and will definitely be associated to a better understanding. This effect doesn't last as long though and it's also harder to prove that a win was induced by better understanding. There is a more aggregated effect of understanding on winning, whereas in a game review, increased understanding has direct impact.

I guess I'll stop here - I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I want to know if I get your meaning correctly before further discussion. Am I off base with what you intended to convey?

You're being very cautious here. I appreciate that but it seems uncalled for. Is there something under the surface that I don't see?

Knotwilg wrote: You're being very cautious here. I appreciate that but it seems uncalled for. Is there something under the surface that I don't see?

Not really. I just want to make sure we're on the same page. I'm having my own "go midlife crisis", I guess, so I've been contemplating on whether to stick with the game, myself.

No. It's more when reading a book like Lee Sedol - Gu Lin jubango by GoGameGuru, or Lee Sedol's own game commentaries or when providing guidance such as the recent exchanges with Ian Butler here.

So let's take the first example: the Lee Sedol - Gu Li Jubango book. Maybe it's a stupid question, but what exactly is it that provides you enjoyment from reading the book? It seems we are detaching from the idea of winning, so it must not be that the enjoyment from reading the book is related to increasing your own game winning percentage.

So why do you like that book? Is your brain just fascinated by the commentary?

Kirby wrote:So let's take the first example: the Lee Sedol - Gu Li Jubango book. Maybe it's a stupid question, but what exactly is it that provides you enjoyment from reading the book? It seems we are detaching from the idea of winning, so it must not be that the enjoyment from reading the book is related to increasing your own game winning percentage.
So why do you like that book? Is your brain just fascinated by the commentary?

I think what knotwilg means (feel free to correct me) is that you take more pleasure out of reading those commentaries if you are better at go, because you understand it better.
I, for example, love to see pro games, but I can't say I understand much of it. I can imagine pro games becoming even more fascinating the stronger you yourself get and the more you get to understand the flow of the game.

Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

I think that both depends on the situation and on the person in case.

- You don't need to understand a rainbow to appreciate its beauty.
- Yet the more I know about music, the more pleasurable my listening becomes, because I recognize things I otherwise wouldn't.

In Go, I guess it depends.
Total beginners can play an amazing game and enjoy it very much, I agree.

But watching a high level game and not knowing what is happening is less pleasurable (imho) than understanding something about the game.

Another comparison. I used to follow cycling a bit. It's so much fun to follow it when you know the riders racing and their backstory and what is happening in a race.
If you just watch cycling and don't have that background, it's the most boring things to watch ever

Kirby wrote:Does understanding something make it pleasurable?

To me, the act of learning to understanding something is pleasurable, and particularly the transition from not understanding it to understanding it. I spend hours and hours on learning more math and physics, for example. I get the same "understanding high" from rich games like chess and go.

Kirby wrote:I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up.

Uberdude wrote:

Kirby wrote:I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up.

Are they understandable for DDK/SDK level? I might want to watch them, but not if I won't understand it

Ian Butler wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Kirby wrote:I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up.

Are they understandable for DDK/SDK level? I might want to watch them, but not if I won't understand it

Michael Redmond is a great commentator, and I'd imagine that DDKs would enjoy the discussion as well. I've been playing devil's advocate in this thread, but his reviews are definitely entertaining.

He might be my favorite English-speaking commentator.

Kirby wrote:Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

And I understand how to vomit and I don't find it pleasurable. I really fail to see what you're trying to reach here.

Knotwilg wrote:

Kirby wrote:Does understanding something make it pleasurable? Forgive the analogy: I understand how to wash the dishes, but I don't get a lot of pleasure from it.

And I understand how to vomit and I don't find it pleasurable. I really fail to see what you're trying to reach here.

Simple: why do you find the Lee Sedol - Gu Li Jubango book enjoyable to read?

Sometimes I fall asleep trying to read go books. Maybe it's just a difference in preference.

Uberdude wrote: My solution: prop a laptop nearby and watch Redmond's AlphaGo reviews whilst washing up.

I totally do that, but when I do my wife claims the dishes aren't cleaned as well.

playing applies your knowledge into the game
it's like practicing what you already know

reviewing doesn't do much help unless a stronger player helps you review and offer some insights into the game
it can help if you thought that in some spots you could've played better, like you identified your own mistakes
but more often than not, players don't recognize their own mistakes, hence ask for assistance

then tsumego it's very helpful
because when you are surrounded or your opponent is surrounded, you can quickly assess the situation
otherwise you'll often won't be sure if you/your opponent is dead/alive
the question of groups living/dead affects the whole game

say you see opponent only has 1 eye, you chase him and profit easily
or you see opponent definitely is alive, you go for a big move instead of playing locally
and besides tsumego helps your reading ability
and mix in some tesuji problems with your tsumego problems, helps your middle game as well

i tend to find it that my opening is good and lacking in reading ability rather
i find most of us non asians are in the same boat as well
hence most important is tsumego for us probably
sure we can keep on studying on opening and theories and etc., we can be like dans in opening etc.
but if we suck at tsumego/tesuji/reading, it eventually puts a stop into our games
sure we can memorize all those joseki etc., but eventually you find yourself in mid game opponent fighting his way thru and you won't be able maintain the advantage thru opening that you've achieved

tsumego is probably #1
reviews from other players #2
reading books on your own #3

sure if you are clueless, reviews help more than tsumego initially...but once you understand the basic idea "urgent before big", you'll find it's so much easier to understand the game
tsumego also helps with your memories, visualization, and translates into other skills in life as well
might as well go full blown tsumego
can even try go tsumego for a month straight with 0 games for at least 2 hours a day
and see how much strength you've gained afterwards