Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:55 am**

Does anyone know how to resolve this issue on Fox? I just played the game below that ended with the scoring algorithm judging the top group as alive. In this case, it didn't affect the outcome of the game, but how do you mark stones dead if the scoring estimator incorrectly judges them alive? The only option I seem to have after both players accept automatic scoring is to accept the result. There does not seem to be a way to alter the result. There is a button called "marked dead" at the bottom of the window, but that seems to be inoperable during automatic scoring.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . X O X X X X O O X O O . . | $$ | O O . O O . . O O X X O O O X X O . . | $$ | X X O . . O O O O X X X . . X X O . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X X O O X X X X O O . . | $$ | X . . X X O . . X O O O O X X X O . . | $$ | O X X X X X X . . X O . . O O X O . . | $$ | O O O O X . . . . X X O O . O O . . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . X X O O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X X X X O O . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O X . X X O O X . O O O . . . . . | $$ | O . O X X O O O O X O O X X O O . O O | $$ | X O O O X X O X X X O X . . X X O O X | $$ | X X X X X O O X . X O X . X X . X O X | $$ | . . . X O O . O X X X X . . . X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . O O X O . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X O . X O . . O O X X X . . X . X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . O O O X X . X . . | $$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . O O O X . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:03 am**

I see unresolved play, not dead stones

Aka dont botch it by playing on the wrong spot.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:44 am**

Gomoto wrote:I see unresolved play, not dead stones

Aka dont botch it by playing on the wrong spot.

I feel like I may not understand when a group is declared dead by rule. I look at this, and I see the following:
1. Black can't play at either O17 or N17 without dying.
2. White can make a killing shape with N17.

Does white have to play N17 for the group to be ruled dead under the normal Japanese counting rules?

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:04 am**

Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:20 am**

Tryss wrote:Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.

Yes, ultimately, you are correct, and I think that is what happened in this game. I requested counting twice, the system scored the group dead and my opponent rejected the outcome. For some reason, after filling in a few dame, the system scored it alive, and my opponent was willing to accept that outcome.

The problem is that I have no idea how to resolve this on Fox. On IGS, for example, players can mark groups dead and reset changes to the scoring of the board after the system scores it.

But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:27 am**

With official Japanese rules, white don't have to waste a point.

Now the big question : why not play with easier rules? (I would even say more sensible rules

)

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:29 am**

Tryss wrote:With official Japanese rules, white don't have to waste a point.

Now the big question : why not play with easier rules? (I would even say more sensible rules )

You'll have to ask the Fox folks that one

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:35 pm**

BlindGroup wrote:
Tryss wrote:Japanese rules are never implemented correctly on go servers. Under japanese rules, if there is a disagreement, players should play the situation, then rewind before you played the situation.
But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?

Tryss has already answered this question, but I will rephrase:

If players do not agree on a group's status you:

Note the current board condition
Play additional moves until the group's status is unambiguous. In your case, it would mean Black would pass and White would play to kill
Return to the original board condition, and score according to the result of step 2

The stones played in order to clarify the group's status are not counted towards the final score.

Posted: **Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:46 pm**

Just contact an admin. Fox's admin staff are supposed to be very fast and helpful (I haven't played there myself but it seems to be the normal advice here for all issues on Fox).

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:17 pm**

Does anyone know how the fox ranks are compared to other servers?

My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).

Two examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------- $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . O O B . . $$ - . . X X . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . O . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . X . . . . $$ - . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------- $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . O X . . . $$ - . . O X . . . $$ - . O X . . . . $$ - . O X . . . . $$ - . B . . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . . . . . .[/go]

Stuff like that happens almost once a game.

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:50 pm**

I believe Fox and Tygem are both around 2 stones weaker than KGS overall.

Another difference is that players there are stronger at fighting (for their level) and weaker at joseki/fuseki (for their level). So it is not too surprising that you see a 6k player on Fox whose joseki knowledge is similar to a 10k player on KGS. Be careful once the fighting starts, though!

The first "mistake" you list is not actually as bad as you think, by the way. (There are extended discussions about it on L19 but unfortunately they're hard to find.) But at your level people are probably playing it for the wrong reasons.

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:52 pm**

BlindGroup wrote:But there is also this larger question of what the official rules say about this position. Does white have to waste a point? Or is the group officially dead under Japanese scoring?

Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:25 pm**

paK0 wrote:Does anyone know how the fox ranks are compared to other servers? My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).

I can confirm that you will see these sorts of moves very regularly at least through 1k. It's very humbling to be soundly beaten by someone who plays "wrong" move after "wrong" move. Really forces you to be sure that you understand why the right moves are the right ones

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:34 pm**

paK0 wrote: My opponents at 6k keep making a lot of easy joseki mistakes that stopped around 10k on kgs(has been a while there since I played there though).

Two examples:
$$W
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . .
$$ - . . O O B . .
$$ - . . X X . . .
$$ - . . . . . . .
$$ - . . O . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . .
$$ - . . X . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ------------------------------- $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . O O B . . $$ - . . X X . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . O . . . . $$ - . . . . . . . $$ - . . X . . . . $$ - . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight wrote:Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.

Don't leave us weaklings hanging like that, Bill! Please exposit!

Posted: **Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:42 pm**

Drew wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Under all pro rules the Black group in the top is dead as it stands.
Don't leave us weaklings hanging like that, Bill! Please exposit!

Bill was referring to this board position.

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